DFT consultation on increase of 250W limit to 500W

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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If we don't believe that the DfT is honest in wanting to promote all the benefits of active mobility, and that it sees ebikes as central to that aim, then this debate cannot move forward positively.

Personally, I believe the DfT's motives are good and that these proposed new measures are a step in the right direction - to everyone's benefit.
Of course they are not being honest or good, this proposal has nothing whatsoever to do with promoting pedelec use. The intention is what it has been ever since the outset, when they introduced the e-scooter trial, to include e-scooters in with pedelec legislation in a legal short cut. Hence the need for higher power rating of at least 350 watts and a throttle, together with not needing the driving licence and insurance that e-scooters need at present.
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saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
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Telford
Of course they are not being honest or good, this proposal has nothing whatsoever to do with promoting pedelec use. The intention is what it has been ever since the outset, when they introduced the e-scooter trial, to include e-scooters in with pedelec legislation in a legal short cut. Hence the need for higher power rating of at least 350 watts and a throttle, together with not needing the driving licence and insurance that e-scooters need at present.
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It's the same people with the same ideas that used to call ebike riding cheating. I can remember telling a couple of cycle shops that they should invest in ebikes about twelve years ago. They said I was nuts and didn't understand the cycle industry.
 
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Deleted member 16246

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Just reading the reasons for opposition to power changes given by the industry representatives , they seem incredibly weak and subjective.

Apparently, the established industry will not be able to respond in time, so more people will buy dangerous, unregulated bikes (I suggest that it might be true that there are more e-bike conversions, and much cheaper foreign e-bike imports on the roads already than there are £3000 - £4000 expensive big player offerings. A key feature for probably most buyers is price.

Given that all but pretty feeble and older riders can easily exceed 15.4 miles an hour, a bit more speed is unlikely to have the claimed impact on serious accidents.

I'd have thought that consulting with a vested interest group of suppliers was probably not the best way to find out what the people want.

In the end -I expect that the consultation is more window dressing.

As others have pointed out, the government has its own agenda and that may be linked to a desire to legalise e-scooters. These are far more unstable and dangerous conveyances than standard bikes with added motors. E-bikes are more stable, better at stopping and far easier to steer and progress down bumpy roads. If they want to legalise 350 watt scooters where pedaling is impossible, it would be ridiculous to allow scooters to operate more generous rules.
 

StuartsProjects

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May 9, 2021
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A few years back eScooters might have just about been safe enough for our roads.

But in the last 2-3 years or so there has been a very significant increase in real deep potholes on the roads and there seems little chance of these moonscape roads being sorted anytime soon.

Its really becoming marginal, do I or dont I, for riding something like a Brompton, but an eScooter must now be real scary on the roads.
 
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saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
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A few years back eScooters might have just about been safe enough for our roads.

But in the last 2-3 years or so there has been a very significant increase in real deep potholes on the roads and there seems little chance of these moonscape roads being sorted anytime soon.

Its really becoming marginal, do I or dont I, for riding something like a Brompton, but an eScooter must now be real scary on the roads.
Any motorcycle rider learns very quickly to scan the road ahead for any imperfection. Nobody has ever worried about that. Scooter riders will learn the same. Like motorcyclists, those that don't learn don't survive and there will always be a few casualties during the learning period until you graduate from the University of Hard Knocks.
 
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guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
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A few years back eScooters might have just about been safe enough for our roads.

But in the last 2-3 years or so there has been a very significant increase in real deep potholes on the roads and there seems little chance of these moonscape roads being sorted anytime soon.

Its really becoming marginal, do I or dont I, for riding something like a Brompton, but an eScooter must now be real scary on the roads.
Some were so wide and deep last night, I had to swerve right out to avoid them. The increase in potholes between one year and the next along the same route was absolutely shocking. To safely traverse the ones I encountered, I would have had to reduce speed to 5mph. Quite honestly, they've got me thinking I should ditch folding bikes altogether, for MTBs with front suspension. At this rate, small wheeled folding bikes will become totally unviable on our roads.
 

StuartsProjects

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 9, 2021
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Some were so wide and deep last night, I had to swerve right out to avoid them. The increase in potholes between one year and the next along the same route was absolutely shocking. To safely traverse the ones I encountered, I would have had to reduce speed to 5mph. Quite honestly, they've got me thinking I should ditch folding bikes altogether, for MTBs with front suspension. At this rate, small wheeled folding bikes will become totally unviable on our roads.
Glad I am not alone.

I have been cycling on the so called 'roads' we have in the UK for maybe 55 years. The deterioation in the last couple of years of the safety of 'roads' for cyclists has been very marked indeed.

And yes, my electrified MTB, with quality front suspension and fat Schawalbe Plus Tour tyres feels a whole lot safer.
 

guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
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Glad I am not alone.

I have been cycling on the so called 'roads' we have in the UK for maybe 55 years. The deterioation in the last couple of years of the safety of 'roads' for cyclists has been very marked indeed.

And yes, my electrified MTB, with quality front suspension and fat Schawalbe Plus Tour tyres feels a whole lot safer.
It's not your imagination. While doing my best to listen out for drunk and/or phone fondling drivers and/or cyclist murdering "self-driving" cars etc. speeding through red lights to run me over, I noticed this didn't exist last year. Isn't the worst one, but there were so many, and I'd have to pore through too much video to screengrab other examples. If, when the pothole situation worsens, I may be forced to fat tyre up a penny farthing conversion with front suspension... but I'll try 2.25" wide or wider tyres on my 20" wheeled Dahon Helios first - saves buying a small portable ladder or stool to climb onto the bike, or however it's done.


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I've seen offroad modded 20" wheeled Bromptons. This one has 2.4" wide tyres. Unfortunately, I can't use those nice wide rims on my Dahon: V-brakes.


 
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Deleted member 16246

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And there are rumours that Brompton are planning to release a 20" version with disk brakes and can take fatter tyres.

If they do, I imagine it would be very popular indeed.
Part of the Brompton appeal has always been the incredibly compact fold. A twenty inch wheel version would compromise that, I'd say. I've ridden 20 inch wheeled bikes, the best of which was one of those space framed Moulton TSR thingies. That was a beautiful ride for a small wheeled bike, and fast too, partly due to the very high pressure narrow tyres. It didn't fold, though you could remove a pin or two and it broke in half.

57239

I used to be on a folder forum and when I decided to sell it, this millionaire geezer from San Francisco bought it from me. He wanted me to parcel it up and send it, but I declined, not wanting to risk the thing disappearing or arriving in a mangled condition. His answer to that was to fly to London, meet me there and buy it for £1000 cash, He even paid my petrol costs to drive down to London with it to meet him. He was a really nice fellow who had made a mint in the Dot Com boom and retired aged about 45 on the proceeds. He took it back to America with him and I saw posting with photos of it being ridden around SF and the environs.

EDIT: Just found the old thread about it on Bikeforums, although I can not get back into my old Evilv account since I have not posted there for about 18 years. Interestingly (to me at least) I recount how at age 57, I had ridden it forty miles in two hours and four minutes... So much for the so called dangers of having electric bikes that exceed 15.4 miles an hour....

 
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guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
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And there are rumours that Brompton are planning to release a 20" version with disk brakes and can take fatter tyres.

If they do, I imagine it would be very popular indeed.
Wheelbase is almost the same as my Dahon Helios, so that'll ride great with 20" wheels. If a Brompton could fold with a BBS01B installed, I'd buy one with disc brakes. I've got 1.75" wide Marathon Plus on the Helios at the moment, but I can fit 2.15" to better deal with potholes... though the mudguards may grumble, possibly to the point of removal if I can't find wider compatibles (failed so far). The v-brakes might have enough clearance for 2.15" - when the potholes situation worsens, will buy a £10 cheapo discardable to try on for size, before buying Schwalbes.
 
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guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
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If the bolt securing the rear swinging fork could be safely made quick release, I could get a BBS01B on, for a seriously powerful hill climbing, breaking and folding eBrompton.

Schwalbe 20 x 2.15" Big Apples look good for bumping over potholes, but only Raceguard, not as puncture-proof as Marathon Plus.


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guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
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You could go for Big Ben Plus rather than Big Apple, has better puncture resistance.
Cheers! Good call! Will do when the time comes - with current cost pressures, I don't believe the pothole situation will improve anytime soon... unless they resume printing money, which won't worsen the situation for a short time. Again.

They're available in 20"! :)


57251
 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
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i got a free warranty replacement from schwalbe as my magic Mary was delaminating and they gave me my money back.

must have been a bad batch of rubber as not had that problem since ;)
 

guerney

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 7, 2021
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i got a free warranty replacement from schwalbe as my magic Mary was delaminating and they gave me my money back.

must have been a bad batch of rubber as not had that problem since ;)
That Schwalbe honour their guarantee is reassuring. The rubber compound on Marathon Plus is very hard wearing, the treads on mine still look ok after 4,000km. I don't trust them in wet conditions going over metal grates, but in my experience they hold onto tarmac well in the rain - I wouldn't test them beyond this though (after 22 seconds). Was in a hurry that night, downhill.


 

soundwave

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 23, 2015
16,998
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To comply with DVSA/DVLA regulations, we cannot offer kit fitting services for kits rated over 250W. For kit fitting instructions please click here

$1800 quid and will nuke a surron :p