DFT consultation on increase of 250W limit to 500W
- Thread starter Michael Price
- Start date
Your vivid imagination was shared by Russia during the cold war. Outsiders with visas could drive or motorcycle into Russia, but pedal cycles were completely banned from entry since they needed no fuel so couldn't be tracked by any means.
Not the only discrimination against bicycles. British possession Guernsey required all pedal cycles were registered until WW2, astonishing on an island only nine miles by four! They had a neat way of doing it though, it was calling into the registration office, paying the fee and receiving in exchange a tiny clip-on number plate.
Japan remains the most prominent current example of a major nation requiring citizens to register their bikes and, after purchasing a bicycle, riders are legally obliged to register their machine. Registration costs around £3 and is often done as the bike is purchased, with a form including personal details submitted. Upon completion a small sticker can be added to the bike. It's worth noting again, as with Denmark's VIN, the registration is primarily an anti-theft measure.
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Deleted member 16246
Guest
On the matter of ebike battery fires; I suspect that the vast majority of them occur when naive users plug higher voltage chargers into batteries. I have not tried it, but I expect plugging a 48 v or 52v charger into a 36 volt battery would likely result in extreme heating of the battery and a likely fire. There is also the possible failure of the charger voltage control circuit if it is badly made, but probably far less likely than stupid abuse such as using a higher voltage charger.
As for a larger battery being more dangerous...... Notionally maybe, but in practice why would a 750 watt/hour battery be more likely to ignite than a 450 watt hour one? No battery fire is a good outcome. A 450 watt hour battery will set your kitchen on fire as well as a bigger one.
Less likely, but it'd be a bigger fire?
I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong about the following: The cells in a smaller capacity cell pack outputting 15A will do so at a higher temperature, than if they were in a larger battery pack composed of the same cell type outputting 15A. Manufacturers of cheap Chinese ebikes we see all over Amazon etc. tend to use batteries made with cheap Chinese cells, which may have slight differences in cell chemistry, because quality control wasn't stringent and they were manufactured in a different batch on a different date - it wouldn't surprise me if these cheap battery packs simply increased in size to more reliably produce higher continuous amps for 500W motors, but the increased numbers of cells increases the likelihood of one or more badly manufactured or mismatched cells failing, causing a short and igniting.
I suspect consumers may want a 500w ebike in future so manufacturers and retailers will rebadge their bikes for the UK market as 500w
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Deleted member 16246
Guest
On enforcement of regulations.
What enforcement? As in many other spheres of public life, the enforcement of e-bike power regulations, and e-scooter rules is an incredibly rare event - so rare as to be laughable. It is a waste of time to even trouble oneself about coming to the best definition of e-bike motor power measuring rules.
When I am in Newcastle - a city with a rented e-scooter trial, which I visit every week for a day or two, I see wholesale lawbreaking on the horrible orange Neuron scooters. Young children of about ten and twelve can be seen riding these supposed 'motor vehicles' around at speed, often on pavements and in parks, sometimes with passengers clinging to the back of the rider. These machines are suppose only to be used by people with driving licenses, so there is probably connivance by parents to get the required authorisation. Adult males are also riding these things on pavements and at speed. They are left scattered about all over the place, often just thrown down. Nobody seems to care - at least in the sense of police doing anything about it. I have often seen a couple of characters flying along the roads and pedestrian shared walk ways / cycle ways on top of single wheel contraptions which from their speed seem to be powered by at least 500 watt motors and maybe even twice that. God knows what happens to the rider when an emergency stop is required. I can only imagine that the braking force would fling the rider off and leave the contraption careering wildly down the road. The fact that I have seen the same riders regularly on these things suggests no policing is going on.
Nit picking about throttles, small differences in power, or whether the e-bike cuts off at 15.4 miles an hour exactly or maybe 19, is laughable and delusional. Nobody cares - nobody at least who is in a position to put a stop to it. Why should they anyway? In a country where the police usually don't even visit the reporter of a domestic burglary, connive at managing public drunkenness by pandering to crowds of drunken morons in our cities from one end of the country to the other, there are MANY much more worthy jobs for the police to do which are currently not being done.
Like almost every other ebike conversion I am certain that my Bafang 250 watt crank motor bike is not strictly legal. It has a throttle, and I can set the cut off speed higher than 15.4 miles an hour, though I do have it set there at the moment. IT DOESN'T MATTER. I ride it cautiously, politely and considerately at all times. What the nit picking brigade always fail to think of when they tie up the whole population with regulations and rules, is that in the hands of an inconsiderate moron, every bike, every dog, every motorcar or every tool is a menace. It isn't the bike, car, dog or sharp tool that is the problem, it is the moron abusing it.
The law should go after and PUNISH the abuse, not the nit picking of regulations.
What enforcement? As in many other spheres of public life, the enforcement of e-bike power regulations, and e-scooter rules is an incredibly rare event - so rare as to be laughable. It is a waste of time to even trouble oneself about coming to the best definition of e-bike motor power measuring rules.
When I am in Newcastle - a city with a rented e-scooter trial, which I visit every week for a day or two, I see wholesale lawbreaking on the horrible orange Neuron scooters. Young children of about ten and twelve can be seen riding these supposed 'motor vehicles' around at speed, often on pavements and in parks, sometimes with passengers clinging to the back of the rider. These machines are suppose only to be used by people with driving licenses, so there is probably connivance by parents to get the required authorisation. Adult males are also riding these things on pavements and at speed. They are left scattered about all over the place, often just thrown down. Nobody seems to care - at least in the sense of police doing anything about it. I have often seen a couple of characters flying along the roads and pedestrian shared walk ways / cycle ways on top of single wheel contraptions which from their speed seem to be powered by at least 500 watt motors and maybe even twice that. God knows what happens to the rider when an emergency stop is required. I can only imagine that the braking force would fling the rider off and leave the contraption careering wildly down the road. The fact that I have seen the same riders regularly on these things suggests no policing is going on.
Nit picking about throttles, small differences in power, or whether the e-bike cuts off at 15.4 miles an hour exactly or maybe 19, is laughable and delusional. Nobody cares - nobody at least who is in a position to put a stop to it. Why should they anyway? In a country where the police usually don't even visit the reporter of a domestic burglary, connive at managing public drunkenness by pandering to crowds of drunken morons in our cities from one end of the country to the other, there are MANY much more worthy jobs for the police to do which are currently not being done.
Like almost every other ebike conversion I am certain that my Bafang 250 watt crank motor bike is not strictly legal. It has a throttle, and I can set the cut off speed higher than 15.4 miles an hour, though I do have it set there at the moment. IT DOESN'T MATTER. I ride it cautiously, politely and considerately at all times. What the nit picking brigade always fail to think of when they tie up the whole population with regulations and rules, is that in the hands of an inconsiderate moron, every bike, every dog, every motorcar or every tool is a menace. It isn't the bike, car, dog or sharp tool that is the problem, it is the moron abusing it.
The law should go after and PUNISH the abuse, not the nit picking of regulations.
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It is not the battery capacity that is the problem. Motors with 500W rating will draw more Amps and this is where problems will start. Get right battery with good quality cells and all should be fine, but I see where corners could be cut and risk of fire increased.
I suspect consumers may want a 500w ebike in future so manufacturers and retailers will rebadge their 250w bikes for the UK market as 500w
D
Deleted member 16246
Guest
I believe that most of the cells made are made in China. It is by far the biggest cell manufacturer. Many of the well known cell manufacturers are making their cells in China, probably because they are pretty near to having a monopoly on large scale lithium extraction and refining.
I have never seen my battery pack being even slightly warm and that even after riding up nine hundred vertical feet in about a mile and a half out of the Tyne Valley on the southern side. When I ride up that road, I put the 250 watt bike into its highest assist setting and can use the throttle (along with pedalling like mad) to increase the current available. In that mode of use, the dash board shows it is drawing about 350 - maybe 500 watts - give or take. The battery remains cool and the motor will be warm but never hot to the touch. I have never messed with the internal motor settings vis a vis current draw which I think you can adjust with a cable and an app of some sort.
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Hard to say, this isn't what happened with the S-class High Speed pedelecs.
They originally had the identical 250 watts rating but without any restriction could only just top 32 kph (20mph), far short of the permitted 45kph (28mph).
So the authorities increased the rating to 500 watts to deal with that issue and manufacturers rushed out 500 watt machines. But the market decided otherwise since range suffered too much, so now almost all S-class bikes actually use 350 watt rated motors, being the best compromise between performance and range.
That could easily happen with the new regulation here, especially since most e-scooters already have 350 watt motors and 350 watt standard pedelecs are already made for other countries.
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That's interesting, I wasn't suggesting they would make any changes to the UK market bikes, they would be identical but rated and stamped 500w instead of 250w
The AKM 128c is marked 250w I believe for OEM customer Wisper but non OEM are marked 500w, it would then bring non OEM in to the legal category for UK use.
Users though will need to be careful not to get caught out esp if they take bikes abroad to use as the EU will be 250w rated only for legality.
So many non OEM hubs are marked 350w so it will bring 100's if not 1000's in use in to the legal category as would those with throttles if implemented.
However also in the consultation process they may only introduce the measures for certain users which is also out lined, but tbh I can't see there being a two tiered system other wise every one will just buy and convert a cargo bike.
Users though will need to be careful not to get caught out esp if they take bikes abroad to use as the EU will be 250w rated only for legality.
So many non OEM hubs are marked 350w so it will bring 100's if not 1000's in use in to the legal category as would those with throttles if implemented.
However also in the consultation process they may only introduce the measures for certain users which is also out lined, but tbh I can't see there being a two tiered system other wise every one will just buy and convert a cargo bike.
Raising the rated power to 500w wouldn't make much different to power usage as most bikes can output that or more currently , it possibly could make a dent in the DD market ?
One can get approx. 800w motor output from an AKM 128c with a 22a controller or nearly 1kw with a 25a controller.
One can get approx. 800w motor output from an AKM 128c with a 22a controller or nearly 1kw with a 25a controller.
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I doubt that though, professional reviews alone would expose no change in the power and performance and consumers would react critically.
There's no cost to the manufacturer to double the power by changing the controller where the existing motor can take the extra, and even a motor change could often be at the same price.
But the simplest and cheapest change is to 350 watts which would cost no extra on the majority of existing machines which could deliver the pro rata extra power.
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why would I want to voluntarily step into a minefield? In a medium term, we are expected to get closer to the EU (whatever that means, as far as I am aware, 99.9% our regulations haven't diverged from the EU) so I don't expect our pedelecs regulations to diverge other than what the police will be instructed to ignore such as the full acting throttle even on factory made bikes.
Which forumites have responded to this consultation? Given all the whingeing we hear constantly about throttles, I certainly hope many have or will - especially the regular highly vocal and interminably long winded throttle illegality whingers railing against the system and the unfairness of it all. You know who you are. Seize the day! Now is your chance to put things right! Don't delay, consult today! Your keyboard will thank you.
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