DFT consultation on increase of 250W limit to 500W

[Peter.Bridge]

Woosh and Wisper as well as other UK brands will mostly stick to 250w rated hubs as other wise sales overseas see will be affected, I guess they could have two lines of motors .

Or different ratings stamps for UK and EU : if a particular motor model starts to heat up at 1000w, I think, under the regs, you could quite justifiably rate the max continuous motor power at 250w, 500w or 750w (250w would be quite conservative but I think you could justify it from an engineering pov)

 

[flecc]

One can cross Alps on bike with 250W rating, so why one would need a 500W? It is nothing more than a cosmetic change in desperate attempt by government to show that they are trying to do something after Brexit.

It's more than a cosmetic change though. At the outset of the hire e-scooter trial they said they they wanted to keep with their common 350 watts rating, necessary without pedal assistance, and combine them with assisted bicycles. So obviously that meant an increase in pedelec power and full throttle authorisation.

And I'm sure that their long held desire to get more people out from behind steering wheels and onto two wheels is also behind the change, so here our views differ. Today's 250 watt rated assisted bikes are nowhere near powerful enough for that. Certainly a fit cyclist can cross the Alps with one, but the average fairly unfit or even slightly disabled person on the street finds them exhausting to pedal on any slope as so many newbie posts in here reveal. Hence the constant demand for more power and the huge increase in illegality, making it clear that what so many want is a moped, which is what a limited speed e-scooter is of course.

I don't see any safety issue with the change since the laws on power, throttle and riding at moderate speeds on shared paths are so widely ignored anyway. It could even be safer if the 500 watts rating proves enough for most and stops them buying even more powerful motors.
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[Pingk]

With no legal limit on power provided by controller I see no need for 500W rated motors on the market. One can cross Alps on bike with 250W rating, so why one would need a 500W? It is nothing more than a cosmetic change in desperate attempt by government to show that they are trying to do something after Brexit. They of course won't admit it could have been done 10 years ago.
Personally I don't think fat, overpowered e-bikes should mix with little children, elderly and dog walkers. It is nothing but asking for trouble.

...and of course they still leave converted bikes in legal limbo.

Why does the increased power make them riskier? Riding like an idiot has nothing to do with how much power you have, I've seen standard cyclists blow through red lights sometimes, and powerful motors will still need to follow the 15.5mph assist cutoff.

 

[Az.]

So obviously that meant an increase in pedelec making it clear that what so many want is a moped, which is what a limited speed e-scooter is of course.

500W rated motor and full throttle is what it is - a moped. Why make an effort to disguise it as a bike? I think a new moped class would be a much better solution with a quick and simple registration.

 

[Az.]

Why does the increased power make them riskier? Riding like an idiot has nothing to do with how much power you have, I've seen standard cyclists blow through red lights sometimes, and powerful motors will still need to follow the 15.5mph assist cutoff.

We will follow what has already happened in USA. There will be plenty of fat wheeled mopeds all over pavements.
More power will mean heavier bikes and faster acceleration - more risk for children on shared paths.
Watch some YouTube vids from USA. They almost all use fat mopeds.

 

[portals]

With no legal limit on power provided by controller I see no need for 500W rated motors on the market. One can cross Alps on bike with 250W rating, so why one would need a 500W? It is nothing more than a cosmetic change in desperate attempt by government to show that they are trying to do something after Brexit. They of course won't admit it could have been done 10 years ago.
Personally I don't think fat, overpowered e-bikes should mix with little children, elderly and dog walkers. It is nothing but asking for trouble.

OK, I've taken the bait, I've got a big brown drinking voucher that says you can't cross the Alps on bike with 250W rating....yes I mean 'you'.

Cosmetic, no, a change for the better and the future I think.

Also, you shouldn't let 'little children, elderly and dog walkers' on to bike lanes...just saying...

...and of course they still leave converted bikes in legal limbo.

Not really, if bike is illegal (above proposed 500W), then it's still illegal?

 

[flecc]

500W rated motor and full throttle is what it is - a moped. Why make an effort to disguise it as a bike? I think a new moped class would be a much better solution with a quick and simple registration.

Only if they needed no L plates, no two part driving licence, no third party insurance, no CBT and no helmet compulsion. It's the total of all those things that prevent popularising two wheel use widely enough.

That is why people are illegally mopeding around on e-scooters. They'll happily do that, but won't do the unreasonably long list of things the state demands.
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[Az.]

OK, I've taken the bait, I've got a big brown drinking voucher that says you can't cross the Alps on bike with 250W rating....yes I mean 'you'.

YouTube is full of vids of this being done by normal people.
I didn't do it, no. I have it on my bucket list though.

Also, you shouldn't let 'little children, elderly and dog walkers' on to bike lanes...just saying...

So how does it work? You don't want them on bike lanes? But you want mopeds to be allowed on shared paths?

Not really, if bike is illegal (above proposed 500W), then it's still illegal?

At this moment I don't now even a single converted bike in UK that would be legal.

 

[Az.]

Only if they needed no L plates, no driving licence, no third party insurance, no CBT and no helmet compulsion. It's the total of all those things that prevent popularising two wheel use widely enough.

That is why people are illegally mopeding around on e-scooters. They'll happily do that, but won't do the unreasonably long list of things the state demands.
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Yes. Just keep mopeds where they belong - on roads.

 

[Pingk]

We will follow what has already happened in USA. There will be plenty of fat wheeled mopeds all over pavements.
More power will mean heavier bikes and faster acceleration - more risk for children on shared paths.
Watch some YouTube vids from USA. They almost all use fat mopeds.

Cycling on pavements is against the UK highway code, bikes belong on cycle paths or roads. If that's what you're worried about then ask your local police to enforce that harder.

 

[Az.]

Cycling on pavements is against the UK highway code, bikes belong on cycle paths or roads. If that's what you're worried about then ask your local police to enforce that harder.

It is not that simple. Bikes are not allowed on pavements, but... are allowed if a cyclist is afraid to cycle on road. And which one of us is not?

 

[Pingk]

It is not that simple. Bikes are not allowed on pavements, but... are allowed if a cyclist is afraid to cycle on road. And which one of us is not?

All the more reason to push for better cycling infrastructure? Are scared/cautious cyclists the same people who might be a menace if they have a more powerful motor? I struggle to see this as a good reason to hamstring the potential of pedelecs as a viable alternative to personal transport for more people.

 

[flecc]

Just keep mopeds where they belong - on roads.

I agree, but I fear this is a long lost battle.

We have many thousands of miles of road with some 45 million various vehicles jam packing them with traffic.

We have many thousands of miles of pavements, over 90% empty all the time since so many appear to have lost the use of their legs and only drive.

In this circumstance shared use was always inevitable. Even the cycling Dutch gave in, permitting mopeds and S class high speed pedelecs on their formerly slow and sedate cyclepaths.

As you posted before, this new law will probably be passed regardless of the consultation, so 500 watt mopeds are likely to occupy our shared use paths soon.

It could actually be good news, if the threat of being mowed down brings more lane discipline and pedestrians keep to their half.
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[Az.]

All the more reason to push for better cycling infrastructure?

Absolutely! This is exactly what we need!

Are scared/cautious cyclists the same people who might be a menace if they have a more powerful motor?

I wouldn't use word "menace", but risk for other people will increase. I have no doubts about that.

 

[saneagle]

One can cross Alps on bike with 250W rating, so why one would need a 500W?

They need 500w for twist and go scooters to get up Park St. in Bristol and other similar hills. Also, the guys on their twis and go bikes will need them for the same reason.

 

[Az.]

I agree, but I fear this is a long lost battle.

We have many thousands of miles of road with some 45 million various vehicles jam packing them with traffic.

What is the plan then? To turn our roads into what is happening in Pakistan or China? We already have to many lunatics on roads who have no idea on how to ride/cycle/drive.

It could actually be good news, if the threat of being mowed down brings more lane discipline and pedestrians keep to their half.
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I must say I quite don't like a thought of my child being mowed down by rapid fatso on rapid fat bike who can only move his thumb.

 

[Pingk]

I wouldn't use word "menace", but risk for other people will increase. I have no doubts about that.

I don't think we're going to agree on this, but I appreciate the discussion.
People should take responsibility for their actions, rather than using their tools as an excuse for their bad behaviour.
Have a good weekend!

 

[Az.]

People should take responsibility for their actions, rather than using their tools as an excuse for their bad behaviour.

Again I agree with you.
However allowing high powered mopeds without registration plates pretty much everywhere is exactly an opposite. People like unregistered mopeds exactly for that reason - no responsibility and no accountability.

This forum is full of moped users dressed as cyclists pretending they have bikes. They blab about their antisocial behavior and how they ride. They do that because they don't have plates. If they had plates they wouldn't be so cocky.

Have a good weekend!

You too.

 

[flecc]

They don't have a proper plan as such. They are just trying to make best use what we have now in two ways, utilising the largely empty pavements better and persuading more people out of cars and onto two wheels of almost any kind for at least some of their journeys.

There is another way tried abroad and in some areas here. Scrap all allocated space so no traffic lanes, no pavements, no crossings, no traffic lights. Just let everyone use the wide open space and sort it out for themselves. Amazingly it works surprisingly well in crowded towns and cities, traffic speeds much slower and more courtesy between all the classes of space users.

There are some problems though. It's an impossible situation for the blind with no pavements, crossings or kerbs to feel for with their cane, and of course very difficult for the emergency services to speed through.
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[Az.]

They don't have a proper plan as such. They are just trying to make best use what we have now in two ways, utilising the largely empty pavements better and persuading more people out of cars and onto two wheels of almost any kind for at least some of their journeys.

That is an uphill battle. In car you are nice in cozy while riding on bike you are exposed to elements.

There is another way tried abroad and in some areas here. Scrap all allocated space so no traffic lanes, no pavements, no crossings, no traffic lights. Just let everyone use the wide open space and sort it out for themselves. Amazingly it works surprisingly well in crowded towns and cities, traffic speeds much slower and more courtesy between all the classes of space users.

Yes, it might work in city centers.

and of course very difficult for the emergency services to speed through.

I don't think there is a person left in UK who would expect fast arrival of ambulance.