Designer labels.

[Wattme?]

Well anyone who has seen me in my bright orange bobble hat will know that I’m not much into designer labels, more a James May type of the biking world. I’ve been lurking around this forum for a while, dipping into this wonderful world of pedelecs during this time I’ve grown seriously worried about designer labels.

The sort of thing I’m talking about is the information provided by bicycle retailers but in particular pedelec retailers. It would be fair to say that as a potential customer I’ve found that information about pedelecs is next to non existent. The lack of information appears to be quite appalling, some manufacturers don’t even quote a weight for their bike, let alone: what type of battery chemistry is installed, what is the battery performance after 200 charge discharge cycles, what type of speed controller is fitted, what’s the specification of the motor, what type of charger, is this charger supplied, can a second battery be fitted, or a whole host of other things which, to be honest, would be pretty dam useful information to anyone who is going to buy use and maintain a pedelec. Now I’d like to say that all of this sort of stuff becomes clear the moment you walk though a retailers door; the sales assistant steps forward, hands you a marketing brochure (do you find that the word brochure is a bitch to spell?) and quietly and confidently answers your questions. But no, my visits to a cycle retailers have teased out the most appalling half truths and muddled information even on ridiculous things like the colour of the bike we were actually looking at, and you want a brochure sir?, pha!, dream on.

So the purpose of this post is to ask; can we collectively draw up a sensible list of specifications, the sort of things every potential buyer should know. The next step would be to contact pedelec forum’s across the world for their contribution, write a best practice notice for voluntary adoption by the industry and then to lobby the European Committee for Standardization to get these designer labels sorted.

What do you think?, achievable? worthwhile? Or should I just pull my bobble hat down a bit further?


EDIT. As a starter how about.

Frame
size
material
Wheel
size
Brakes
type
Gears
number
type
Suspension
type
Bike
weight
Motor:
operating voltage
type
power
noise at 0.25 kw (pedelec standard test conditions) PSTC
noise at peak kw rating PSTC
Controller
type
operational range
operation
features

Then separate out the battery
Voltage
type
size
weight
capacity
capacity 1 year 250 charge PSTC
capacity 2 year 500 charges PSTC

The battery charger
input Voltage
type
size
output


Motor. To assess Noise, how about a test on a test rig with a friction belt to generate the load. This could be individual results or categorised, less that 60 dB(A), less than 57 dB(A) etc. I don't know, but I'd imagine that motors would all but "silent" at about 45 dB(A) ?

Battery capacity.
I'd propose a standard set of criteria to simulate battery conditions, varying % of recharge/discharge cycles from 50 to 100% and recharge at a fixed rate of x% of the batteries rated capacity.
Battery ageing.
Use battery suppliers projected figures when the battery is charged 250 times a year in accordance with the PSTC.

Now what so tough about that lot?

 

[Oiseaux]

I totally agree with the observations and the suggestions. I would also like to include some sort of standardized guide lines as to drag / resistance and noise of motors. How come I can go into a shop looking for lawnmowers / vacuum cleaners and see clearly displayed a decibel rating, but trying to get an answer from an electric bike supplier about qualities and limitations of their motors ranges from downright lies to deliberate vagueness.

Oiseaux

 

[indalo]

It's not unreasonable at all to ask for better factual information from electric bike sellers. If a manufacturer/shipper/importer/seller chooses not to reveal basic, important data such as overall weight, then I have to ask myself what else is being kept quiet?

There's no good in simply telling me that I should ride the machine, ignoring the weight issue, if I know in advance that the maximum weight I can shoulder to climb 3 flights of stairs is 20Kgs and the bike I'm interested in weighs 28Kgs.

Yes, I support any call for better information on ebikes and if we can achieve harmony on some of the basic data which sellers should display, then that would be useful progress.

Regards,
Indalo

 

[banbury frank]

Hi
Wattme

I hate orange bobble hats


Mine is blue

I think you are looking at the E bike market wrong

bike suppliers and manufacturers hands are tied by legislation

The make the Best of the technology available

When you look at buying First thing Budget

When you go to buy a car you Have a budget


You look at the style you like test ride see if it fits and is comfortable to ride how the bike pulls on hills

Then select the bike and now look at service and support

It will GO wrong then it needs support the work in a very hostile environment from pot holes to road salt





Frank

 

[NRG]

I agree with the observations Wattme? But to get consistent and meaningful specifications published by manufacturers would require some sort of regulation enforced upon them....I'm not so sure that's a good path to go down...

 

[flecc]

I agree that specification details are generally sorely lacking, but it's not as easy as it sounds to provide all such information.

Such things as vacuum cleaners running at roughly constant revs can easily have their sound level quoted, but that cannot be done for e-bikes. For example, the sound level varies drastically on hub motors according to usage, rider weight and territory.

A fit rider in fairly flat terrain will hardly hear their hub motor, especially if it's rear wheel mounted, but a less fit individual depending on the hub motor much more in their hilly area can experience lots of quite high level noise, especially if it's a front hub motor. And of course, quoting both extremes of upper and lower levels of noise to cover all possibilities is no more useful than having no information on it.

Nor is it possible to quote the battery performance after a fixed number of charge cycles due to those same wide usage variations, plus the discharge levels at which recharges are done. My first example using half the charge each day will have a very different battery life from my second example if they are using most of the charge each day.

As in so many areas of quantifying or describing e-bike capabilities, we come back to the way their hybrid nature and miniscule power to weight ratio makes widely applicable measure impossible.

Nor is the technical information as widely useful as in other fields. The knowledge of the most common of car technical specification terms and meanings is quite widespread, but that's certainly not the case with e-bike motors etc. Much of the population don't know that e-bikes even exist, let alone anything about electric motor types or rechargeable battery types.
.

 

[Wattme?]

I think you are looking at the E bike market wrong

Thank you for your comments, they seem to they reflect the pedelec market as it stands at the moment.

Now by all means sell products as a lifestyle choice, on colour or by enticements or must have accessories, whatever, but for goodness sake don't hide the facts. I am looking for information, factual, accurate and relevant.

I actually think that the retailers are looking at the E bike market wrong, ignore your customers and they'll look elsewhere.



Opps, forgot to say I don't hold with your fashion sense.

 

[wharfitude]

In a way I think you're maybe looking at the whole thing the wrong way round. If you click the links at the side of this page I think you'll be able to find comprehensive specifications for several ranges of bikes that will answer most if not all of your questions. If you look at cheap electric bikes on eBay you won't. Retailers divide into those who import a container load of Chinese bikes, sell them off and hope to never see or hear from a customer again, and those who have a long standing commitment to a brand and to their customers. You'll have to pay more for this, but because they actually want you to be happy you'll get a better product and better service.

 

[Wattme?]

Well as a starter how about the following.

Frame
size
material
Wheel
size
Brakes
type
Gears
number
type
Suspension
type
Bike
weight
Motor:
operating voltage
type
power
noise at 0.25 kw (pedelec standard test conditions) PSTC
noise at peak kw rating PSTC
Controller
type
operational range
operation
features

Then separate out the battery
Voltage
type
size
weight
capacity
capacity 1 year 250 charge PSTC
capacity 2 year 500 charges PSTC

The battery charger
input Voltage
type
size
output


Motor. To assess Noise, how about a test on a test rig with a friction belt to generate the load. This could be individual results or categorised, less that 60 dB(A), less than 57 dB(A) etc. I don't know, but I'd imagine that motors would all but "silent" at about 45 dB(A) ?

Battery capacity.
I'd propose a standard set of criteria to simulate battery conditions, varying % of recharge/discharge cycles from 50 to 100% and recharge at a fixed rate of x% of the batteries rated capacity.
Battery ageing.
Use battery suppliers projected figures when the battery is charged 250 times a year in accordance with the PSTC.

Now what so tough about that lot?

 

[indalo]

Notwithstanding the comments of flecc and others on this issue, I quite agree Wattme that there is a need for more consistent listing of comparators in the advertising of electric bikes.

With particular regard to the point raised by NRG, I'm happy to agree that I'd prefer not to see your objectives realised only as a result of enforcement but I see no reason why the major players shouldn't invoke a voluntary code whereby all prospective buyers could see at a glance the important data, none of which is difficult, (or expensive) to determine.

Already, it is clear from many comments expressed elsewhere in this forum, that readers understand the differences between, just by way of example, Juicybike and Wisper. Most people are savvy enough to comprehend that there will be some differences between a £700 bike and a £1500 bike just in the same way that a Ford Mondeo differs from a Mercedes E class, although they both do a similar job.

Weight and noise are certainly two factors I'd like to see incorporated in any list of data. The first of those is easily determined while the latter requires slightly more time and effort but could be achieved easily by the manufacturers using identical or, indeed, independent equipment. They would do it if it were required by new legislation so I'd like to see them do it voluntarily.

I actually believe that there is massive room for expansion in the electric bike market, (as do Bosch, it seems) so it's important that, to avoid a market full of "Dell Boys, Boycies, etc, that those people who comprise the various forums on ebikes and others who aspire to be ebike owners actually drive the market in the direction we'd like to see it go with our experience.

Although I'm aware that some of the more serious players in the ebike selling game have developed a very good reputation, there's always room for improvement so I'd like to see all sellers take a fresh look at best practice and incorporate the best bits from any source to improve the customer experience. In the end, those who take on that challenge will be the clear winners.

Regards,
Indalo

 

[Jon]

I agreee with your concept but even supermarkets and food producers cant agree what type of nutition values and symbols should be shown on packets, what chance do you have of implementing regulations like that with a host of Chinese companies.

I would hope that retailers can push in this area because a manufacturer has no purpose if no retailers want to sell its product and retailers wont sell the product if the consumer cant understand the spec or is annoyed with lack of info

 

[flecc]

Now what so tough about that lot?

Most of those I agree with of course, standard specification stuff, most of it bicycle.

I don't think the noise or charge results would be useful though, too generic for customers having vastly different conditions. You are still failing to take into account the hybrid nature and tiny power to weight ratio of e-bikes, and the huge weight variations for the latter due to rider differences. E-bikes are not motor vehicles and cannot be measured as such, something that few seem to understand.

I'm not speaking of small differences. The results of middle of the road standard tests would have no relationship whatsoever to the experience of these two, making the information useless:

A 60 kilo strong cyclist in fairly flat territory.

A 100 kilo unfit cyclist in a very hilly area.
.

 

[Oiseaux]

Reference: Bicycle Association (Japan) Regulation on the Measurement and Labeling of “Riding Distance on One Charge”

SANYO Releases New “eneloop bike†Electric Hybrid Bicycle Industry’s First*1 Eco Charge Mode for More Efficient Regenerative Charging | News Releases | SANYO Electric Co., Ltd. Global

 

[Wattme?]

E-bikes are not motor vehicles and cannot be measured as such, something that few seem to understand.

I'm not speaking of small differences. The results of middle of the road standard tests would have no relationship whatsoever to the experience of these two, making the information useless:

A 60 kilo strong cyclist in fairly flat territory.

A 100 kilo unfit cyclist in a very hilly area.
.

Flecc I appreciate your comments, but I'm not suggesting that the information would define the performance of the bike, there are simply too many variables.

Eliminate the variable and you have a set of data which offers direct comparison of the components.

...you'll be able to find comprehensive specifications for several ranges of bikes that will answer most if not all of your questions. If you look at cheap electric bikes on eBay you won't.

So who just who benefit from the present system? The trusted manufacturer who selects robust, reliable, efficient components, or the doggie old trader who piles them high and sells them cheap? And who will miss out, the manufacturer trying to sell a commercial advantage or the iffy old stock which catches fire if you show it anything more strenuous than a down hill route.

I'm aware that some of the more serious players in the ebike selling game have developed a very good reputation, there's always room for improvement so I'd like to see all sellers take a fresh look at best practice and incorporate the best bits from any source to improve the customer experience. In the end, those who take on that challenge will be the clear winners. Regards, Indalo

Thanks you for your contribution. You've raised several good points in your post. I believe wholeheartedly that there is massive room for expansion in the electric bike market. I can see that now we have safe efficient quiet comfortable pedelecs the natural development of the market will be given a massive boost by at least two factors:
The present fashion for being healthily tanned and looking fit.
The international pressures which are forcing up the cost of fuel.

Reference: Bicycle Association (Japan) Regulation on the Measurement and Labeling of “Riding Distance on One Charge”[/url]

Thanks for that, I had to laugh at the total weight 65kg rider and bike, little wonder my (push) bike keeps telling me, "I'm not a tandem you know".

 

[flecc]

Eliminate the variable and you have a set of data which offers direct comparison of the components.

Agreed, though how useful that is would be in doubt. As our Powabyke Ltd member has pointed out, our membership (less than 4% of e-bikers) is of enthusiasts, yet many if not most of them admit to being non-technical. The 96% plus e-bikers out there who wouldn't dream of joining an e-bike forum are also largely non-technical.

Thanks for that, I had to laugh at the total weight 65kg rider and bike, little wonder my (push) bike keeps telling me, "I'm not a tandem you know".

Me too, such a typically Japanese view of a cycling aspect. In setting their e-bike power phase-down regulations, they regarded 15 kph (9.4 mph) as the typical cycling speed!
.

 

[Wattme?]

Agreed, though how useful that is would be in doubt. As our Powabyke Ltd member has pointed out, our membership (less than 4% of e-bikers) is of enthusiasts, yet many if not most of them admit to being non-technical. The 96% plus e-bikers out there who wouldn't dream of joining an e-bike forum are also largely non-technical.

flecc I've just spent a very interesting 30 mins skimming through you web site. You've obviously been fascinated with operating owning and maintaining pedelec for a considerable time and you've also invested a great deal of effort to support pedelec users. If no one's done this to date, well done that man, I'm impressed.

With regard to the strength of a voice form a forum like this then, it's difficult to overstate the power we possess. Where else could you gather a contribution from thousands of pedelec users (and pedelec wanabee's), and with your connection to international forums, this is a very powerful way for the industry to gather information and judge the response from the public. OK not just Joe public, rather an enlightened, engaged and interested public.

 

[flecc]

Thanks Wattme?. My involvement with adding power to bikes goes back over 60 years to 1950, but I cycled without power added until 8 years ago before actually owning a powered bike myself. It's only since then that I've started the website.
.