Decisions

[Gaynor]

After 2 days of searching for what i want in an electric bike, and trying to work out the various jargon, and going through old threads so i can avoid asking questions that have already been answered, ive come up with these, which are..
The knight rider 2 Electric Bike Sales - Shop Online for Electric Bikes, Electric Vehicles and Cycle Accessories - Knight Rider 2
· Weight only 19.9 kg – only 1.9 kg heavier than the tiny Pocket Rocket
· Front disc brake and rear cantilever brake
· Hand made Alloy 7001 frame
· Suntour alloy front suspension
· Alloy handlebar and stem
· 26" Alloy 6061 wheels
· Triptronic Shimano premium 6 speed
· 250W brushless maintenance free motor
· Throttle and pedal assist modes
· 36V 10 Ah Lithium-ion battery with circuit management system
· Charging time 2-4 hours (from flat)
· 25 - 31 mile range
· Top speed 15 mph
Or the hybird which has a fantastic £200 of pre order for xmas (unsure if this is longer yet)
Electric Bike Sales - Shop Online for Electric Bikes, Electric Vehicles and Cycle Accessories - Pre-Order HYBRID - New Model
look at the specs
Zoom Premium front suspension
Aircraft grade aluminium frame
Wuxing cantelever brakes
6 speed shimano gears
Suitable for people between 5'3" (156cm) and 6'7" (205cm)
Zoom alloy handlebar and stem
26" Japanese wheels with Kevlar tyres
250W brushless maintenance free motor
Throttle and pedal assist modes
24V/12AH NiMH battery system
Charging time 2-3 hours (from flat)
22 mile range
Top speed 15 mph
Weight without battery = 21 Kg
Weight with battery = 24 Kg
Or i thought maybe the safer bet is to go with 50cycles (dont know much about the first site) of which I like..
The ezee chopper @ £995 (Lithium option)50cycles Advanced Electric Bikes - eZee Chopper electric bicycle specification and reviews
or the Quando 2 @ £845 50cycles Advanced Electric Bikes - Quando Folding Electric Bicycle
Or the pack a bike which again seems great for just £579 Electric Bike Sales - Shop Online for Electric Bikes, Electric Vehicles and Cycle Accessories - Pre-Order Pack-A-Bike
After short listing these 5 bikes and not been able to make up my mind, so what's your opinion. ... what's better value for money, better quality ect, these are reputably good at hill climbing, im still unsure how to measure the steepness, and what bike out of these claims to be the best, some sites dont specify the same stats as another site, which make it hard for me to compare. Any advice please?
Gaynor

 

[rsscott]

Hi Gaynor,

i'm currently working on a Buyers Guide for the main site that will allow you to compare specs for various models available and across suppliers too. I probably won't be able to get it finished this side of xmas though as the guide will also be using a 'Pedelecs' method of measuring hill climbing ability and range. There are a few people involved in agreeing a fair method of doing this (way over my head) and we're not quite there yet.

As for the Knight Rider and Zoom, Tim on the forum has had a brief play with the Knight Rider here but I no of no other reports of it out on the road.

50Cycles have a number of owners willing the demo their bikes so this would be a good avenue to explore. I would suggest riding as many bikes in your short-list as possible as you may end up changing your mind!

 

[Gaynor]

Yes i had a look at that thread, very interesting
The buyers guide sounds great, there is limited infomation about electric bikes, and people have their own preferences, would love to see how these differant brands really compare.
Bike riding is something I like to do with the kids, i was thinking of maybe getting two, my daughter lives in the Tonbridge area, the park there would be perfect for riding.
For myself, the journey i would normally take on my old bike was less than 4 miles (one way), which seems so much longer coming back, when youve long steep hills, which did seem to get easier the more you tackle them
A demo seems the sensible way of doing things, i just wish i wasnt so far!

 

[rsscott]

Something I would love to organise at some point in the future is a Group Test. A logistical nightmare, but getting a number of owners together with as many different bikes as possible which can then be put through a series of tests to establish real-life performance. A bit like a UK version of the ExtraEnergy tests!

 

[flecc]

Hello Gaynor

Test rides are the best if you can get them in your Hastings area. Meanwhile, the Chopper will have the best hill climbing of all that lot due to the innately low motor gearing of the 20" wheels and a 7 speed hub. The Quando comes a close second, but lacks the hub gears for you to help it on the very steepest. That said, it has no trouble with 1 in 8 hills and steeper than that is very rarely encountered.

The Knight Rider seems to have much in common with the general design of the Torq except that it's much less well equipped and has 26" wheels. If the motor has similar power it will be slightly the better hill climber, but no match for the Chopper and Quando in that. The same goes for the other model there. Don't take too much notice of the fancy terms like Triptronic and premium on that site. In reality, that six speed Shimano gearset is a bottom end product, as are the Zoom forks, both normally found on cheaper bikes.


I think the Pack a bike might be a risky choice, with it's lower powered motor, again combined with that six speed gear. Best not touch it without a trial proving it would do your job in that fairly hilly area.

So that's my choice for your circumstances:

1) Chopper

2) Quando

3) Knight Rider or Hybrid, but only if tried out on similar hills to those you know.

 

[flecc]

Just seen your further posting.

If you've previously cycled up the hills without assistance, the Chopper and Quando will fly up them with ease, probably towing the kids as well.

 

[Gaynor]

Something I would love to organise at some point in the future is a Group Test. A logistical nightmare, but getting a number of owners together with as many different bikes as possible which can then be put through a series of tests to establish real-life performance

.


That would be the real test, wouldnt it be great. Even with others who had the same model it would be good test to do

 

[Gaynor]

the Chopper will have the best hill climbing of all that lot due to the innately low motor gearing of the 20" wheels and a 7 speed hub. The Quando comes a close second, but lacks the hub gears for you to help it on the very steepest. That said, it has no trouble with 1 in 8 hills and steeper than that is very rarely encountered.

It is definatly a choice between the chopper and Quando 2.. both are good for younger riders too, which something i had to bare in mind, i like the option of being able to fold it, i always thought folders looked a bit dodgey..but that red quando has changed that. Is the quando stock Li ion only?

 

[flecc]

It seems to be listed as Li-ion at £845 currently, but NiMh may be available for £745. Personally I bought the NiMh since it's performance in the Quando is more than adequate, but there may be a question of availability as I see the NiMH Chopper is out of stock, likewise colour availability may not be full range. 50cycles can confirm both of course.

Li-ion gives a fractional increase in performance and knocks a kilo off the bike's weight.

I've also answered the other questions on your entry in the "Just Registered" thread.

 

[Tim]

Yes, we do keep a limited stock of NiMH batteries here at 50cycles and both Chopper and Quandos can be ordered with this option at time of writing!

 

[Gaynor]

Yes, we do keep a limited stock of NiMH batteries here at 50cycles and both Chopper and Quandos can be ordered with this option at time of writing!

Im waiting to hear from 50cycles, as if the specs shown are that of the NiMH then the Li ion would be differant, so basically the Li ion battery last longer but more expensive to replace, and isnt the charge time less with the li ion?

 

[flecc]

The Quando II specs are identical for both versions Gaynor, just the price is different.

The Li-ions are likely to be a bit shorter lived but it's too early to be definitive. They cost more, and if they don't last as long, that further increases the cost. The advantages are that they are best charged as frequently as possible, after every journey or every few miles, not run right down to empty, so that suits a mixed usage, shopping, local pleasure trips etc. The Li-ion is one kilo lighter. There's a minute performance advantage with Li-ion, but it's too small to be concerned with. The Li-ion has a slightly longer range for most people.

By contrast, NiMh are best run down to virtually empty at least every few charges and that could be inconvenient if there's a prospect of running out some way from home. Being well established, a longer life can be confidently predicted when they are cared for properly. They're cheaper.

In summary, choose on the basis on your usage, and whether you are risk averse. If you hate any risk and running the battery down low every four or five charges is convenient, choose NiMh. If you don't mind a small risk, choose the small benefits and convenience of Li-ion.

 

[Gaynor]

In summary, choose on the basis on your usage, and whether you are risk averse. If you hate any risk and running the battery down low every four or five charges is convenient, choose NiMh. If you don't mind a small risk, choose the small benefits and convenience of Li-ion.

(If this computer would stop crashing maybe I can reply this time 3rd time lucky! )
Replacement costs on the Li ion are 250...so if the peformance isnt much differance then the NiMh makes more sence, especially as the bike will be used a lot with the kids taking turns, off road of course.
How come theres not many Nicd, arent those got a much longer life spam?
NiMh is theoretically more efficient still, but these batteries can be expensive, and because the capacity is measured at the more generous 5-Hour rate, the advantage is not what it appears to be. Our experience is that NiMH offers little, if any, improvement in range.

Im reading a lot of infomation that says one thing and then something else completely the other.
The talk of Li ion batterys being more prone to fire worrys me!
So as a rule the more the watts the more power, but shorter the range...
I started to look at the cadence, after someone claiming that they got up to 14% on the li ion, but the watts are only 200 (same as the Quando i think)..but it has an excellant range, it does looks more comfortable too.
Ive read ''If you expect the motor to do most of the work, especially in a hilly area, you'll want a peak consumption of 600 watts or more. On the other hand, if you prefer gentle assistance, a peak of 200 watts may be enough''.Electric Bicycle Questions Answered
As the weathers quite cold and very wet it gives me more chance to do my homework. I hardly used my electric bike in winter..but then half the time it sat in the repair shop anyway!
I like the eZee commercial eZee Electric Bike movie clip
easy to fold eZee Folding Bike

 

[flecc]

Don't worry about fire with the eZee Li-ion battery Gaynor. eZee have heavily biassed the design and chemistry in favour of total safety, and it's as safe as any other type of battery in practice just so long as you don't open it up and start messing about with the internals.

There is no conflict, it's just as I said in the last post above, and I really can't put it any simpler. Those are the features of each and which you choose is down to your personal circumstances. For example:

I do lots of short to medium journeys, so that produces a situation where I can recharge frequently. Since recharging frequently gives me the maximum performance of a full battery all the time, the battery for me is the one that can be recharged frequently, the Li-ion.

On the other hand, if I was a commuter doing around 15 miles or so to work and back, or 10 miles each way, I'd be emptying the battery daily or twice daily, and that doesn't suit Li-ions as well, but it's the ideal usage for NiMh which should be quite fully discharged either every time or at least from time to time when recharging. Therefore I'd choose that.

However, if I was cash strapped, I'd go for NiMh in either circumstance and put up with the inconvenience of having to run the NiMh charge down low from time to time at the risk of running out short of home.

All you need to do now is match yourself to one of those three circumstances to know which battery you want. I suspect it will be the first, the Li-ion.

 

[rsscott]

Flecc's excellent summary of battery choice has been made into an article for the main site. If you'd like to read it, click on the link below:

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/articles/40/1/Deciding-between-NiMh-and-Li-ion-batteries/Page1.html

thanks
Russ

 

[Gaynor]

Flecc's excellent summary of battery choice has been made into an article for the main site. If you'd like to read it, click on the link below:
http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/articles/40/1/Deciding-between-NiMh-and-Li-ion-batteries/Page1.html

Very helpful article.
The thing is still not much is known about the life expectancy(sp) of the Li ion. The trips i would be taking are aprox 10 miles return, a very hilly return at that, so probably an hilly ride is like twice the distance.
Yesterday I thought if they have the NiMh I will go for that (which they have)
and today im back on the Li ion.. why I cant I have been born a man
Flec, did you say that you use both the Li ion and the NiMh in your Quando? Is this tricky to do? If I bought the Li ion, could I get the NiHh battery and charger when it runs out?
Ive been looking for bike bags, that would carry the Quando, on a train, or even a train, but im not sure if the quando folds up small enough to be carried in a bag, and would be very heavy. I have little space, so the convieniance of a folder would be idea. I much preferd the look/comfort of the Sprint or Cadence, but its been said that the quando is comfortable.
Does the battery lock into into place, i was thinking how easy it would be for someone to remove it while im out of site, Hastings/St Leonard's is not as safe as it used to be.

 

[Tim]

Flec, did you say that you use both the Li ion and the NiMh in your Quando? Is this tricky to do? If I bought the Li ion, could I get the NiHh battery and charger when it runs out?

All eZee bikes can use either the NiMH or Lithium battery pack, they are the same size and slide in and out easily.

Does the battery lock into into place, i was thinking how easy it would be for someone to remove it while im out of site, Hastings/St Leonard's is not as safe as it used to be.

Yes, the battery does lock into place. Once the bike is switched to the 'off' position and the key removed, a concealed metal bolt slides into a recess on the battery, holding it firmly in place. We have never heard of anyone losing a battery from their bike. I have left my Quando and Torq left locked up late at night in central London on several occasions and both the bike and battery pack have always been there (touch wood!) on my return.

As for comfort, the Quando now comes with a better saddle than that found on the very earliest models, sprung with a black velour finish, so it's quite comfortable to ride, with a good, upright riding position.

Tim

 

[flecc]

Yes Gaynor, I freely use either the NiMh and Li-ion batteries on both the Quando and Torq, which is fine as Tim has kindly confirmed.

I also agree with him about the comfort of the Quando. By comparison with both my Twist and Torq bikes, the Quando is almost armchair like, and I couldn't wish for greater comfort, even on the worst of potholed lanes around here.

I too park anywhere and everywhere in complete safety, and have done so for nearly four years on the Lafree Twist which also has a locking battery mount.

I don't think anyone would want to carry the Quando any distance, whether in or out of a bag. Like all folding electrics, it's too heavy to be a "carry around" bike. It's more like a "carry out to the car" bike. If it had to be carried on a one-off journey and you had company, the other person could have a bag with the saddle and stem, together with the battery, leaving you with a more manageable bike in another bag, but still quite heavy though. It could also be practical to transport it in a large enough wheeled bag or case if you could find a large enough one.

 

[Gaynor]

Yes, the battery does lock into place. Once the bike is switched to the 'off' position and the key removed, a concealed metal bolt slides into a recess on the battery, holding it firmly in place. We have never heard of anyone losing a battery from their bike. I have left my Quando and Torq left locked up late at night in central London on several occasions and both the bike and battery pack have always been there (touch wood!) on my return.

As for comfort, the Quando now comes with a better saddle than that found on the very earliest models, sprung with a black velour finish, so it's quite comfortable to ride, with a good, upright riding position.

I have just orderd the Quando 2
Thankyou all very much for your help. I went for the Li ion option.
The battery choice was an harder decision than choosing what bike to go for, the Li -ion is still pretty newish, and the NiMi having a lot of positives.

Looking forward for the delivery!

 

[rsscott]

Hi Gaynor,

glad to see you made your decision. I'm sure it will be the right one based on your requirements you previously outlined. I think the Li-ion is a good choice and ultimately the main thing is to get out there and enjoy it! Even if we all need to change our batteries in three years, we will still have made significant savings compared to running a car