Decent shifting systems on crank drive pedelecs

[103Alex1]

Got a bit of a bee in my bonnet at the moment looking at specs of top-end bikes. The best any of the manufacturers charging £2.5k - £3.5k for their offerings seem to be willing to install is an Alfine C11.

Interesting to see Kalkhoff put the superb Rohloff 14 Speedhub into their Endeavour regular bike but even the £3k+ Sahel Pro S class has to make do with the Shimano which is about a third the price and whilst likely better value for component cost is in fairness at the bottom of that 'class' of systems. It's this sort of thing which makes me feel that the top-end bikes are taking the proverbial price-wise...

 

[RobF]

. It's this sort of thing which makes me feel that the top-end bikes are taking the proverbial price-wise...

And the pesky Germans are best at it.

Some of their £2 to £3K ebikes have drivetrains which appear on ordinary bikes costing £300.

The vast amount of tax and profit on a top end bike is partly to blame.

We all have to make a living. but of a £2K bike, about £1,600 is tax and profit.

Far, far better value to be had from a £600 bike from someone such as woosh, although everyone accepts the £2K bike is the nicer machine.

 

[amigafan2003]

This is why I bought a kit and fitted it to a good bike - I just couldn't get what I wanted in an off the shelf bike.

The nearest was Cytronex but the battery was too small and I'd have had to spend £2k+ to get a bike equivalent to my £1100 home build.

 

[flecc]

Far, far better value to be had from a £600 bike from someone such as woosh, although everyone accepts the £2K bike is the nicer machine.

The law of diminishing returns, it applies to everything we buy. The content of a luxury car is grossly overpriced when compared with a mass market popular one, for example the original Jaguar X type after Ford took over the company was just a Mondeo tarted up. Even within a standard car model option range the price difference bottom-to-top can be staggering, for example from a recent price list I have, basic Ford Focus £13995, top hot-hatchback version £25495. The content of the latter cannot be almost twice the former.

The reasons are twofold, production volume and what the manufacturer/supplier can get away with on desirability grounds.

The more desirable product can even be worse at it's job, the multi-thousands of pounds Rolex watch is an example. It keeps less accurate time than my radio-linked to atomic-clock £29 one, but my one just tells the time, the Rolex allows it's owner to be flash.

 

[gerryscott]

I also see that kalkhoff are bringing out a sahel model with the nu vinci harmony 360 for 2013, just wonder if another expensive gimmick or a genuine improvement to e bike cycling.

 

[flecc]

I also see that kalkhoff are bringing out a sahel model with the nu vinci harmony 360 for 2013, just wonder if another expensive gimmick or a genuine improvement to e bike cycling.

Likeable in most respects both on my try and in the two main reviews I've seen. We are all unanimous that it has low efficiency, a distinct sense of drag always present, but that's hardly surprising given that it gains it's transmission grip by extreme compression of a fluid. So far from ideal with pedal power only, but eminently suitable for an e-bike, especially a crank drive one since it's torque limit is far higher than any other available hub gear. I think to all intents it will be everlasting in service.

 

[Scimitar]

The law of diminishing returns, it applies to everything we buy. The content of a luxury car is grossly overpriced when compared with a mass market popular one, for example the original Jaguar X type after Ford took over the company was just a Mondeo tarted up. Even within a standard car model option range the price difference bottom-to-top can be staggering, for example from a recent price list I have, basic Ford Focus £13995, top hot-hatchback version £25495. The content of the latter cannot be almost twice the former.

The reasons are twofold, production volume and what the manufacturer/supplier can get away with on desirability grounds.

I read a figure a few years ago that Ford and others reckoned it cost them a fiver per kilo to make a car - any car, any spec. Work that out for base cost and profitability.
Of course, with Jaguar, Ford already knew and had known for decades that punters would pay a fair bit extra for the nametag associated with a bit of quality - like Ghia. Anyone who ever took a Granada Ghia or any other Ghia model to bits could easily see the so-called 'luxury' or 'upmarket' finish was nothing more than tat glued on.

 

[103Alex1]

I definitely agree in some respects. It's not all bad with zee Germans - Kalkhoff redeemed themselves by using Magura HS hydraulic brakes and installing front hub dynamo lights for your backups with a rear light that gets brighter as you brake. Both decent quality higher end parts that cost a fair bit. Far better than some of the tat I've seen installed on some others in that price bracket (no names mentioned !). Pedals, racks and even handlebars etc. are neither here nor there on a bike of that cost so swapping over is no biggie.

The frame paintwork is virtually unchippable, seat is comfy for even my skinny bum and the LCD output is actually readable rather than something that looks like a pocket toy, and the battery / rim locks being matched to one key was a nice touch. It's just the blooming gears where they cut and run with the margins.... and they're one of a few representing the best of the bunch, none of whom deliver any better.

The Rohloff gears cost about £1k ... and looks like they are already in use on eBikes. However, they are the likes of the Blacktrail BT-01 which costs about £50k and the KTM egnition - which is a good £7k. If I was going to DIY a crank-drive bike with a top-end Kit (and I'm not - whilst living here at least ) then there's little doubt a great bike starting with a Rohloff Speedhub and hydraulic rim brakes would be a great place to start and would bring the finished product into line with what I'd really like in return for shelling out £2.5k+.

 

[RobF]

Slap a cheap hub drive on this and you'd be up and Rohloffing for what - about £2K?

http://www.50cycles.com/bicycles/kalkhoff/kalkhoff_endeavour_rohloff_speedhub_14

 

[103Alex1]

Slap a cheap hub drive on this and you'd be up and Rohloffing for what - about £2K?

http://www.50cycles.com/bicycles/kalkhoff/kalkhoff_endeavour_rohloff_speedhub_14

It would be a waste really ... you'd need a front wheel hub motor which wouldn't drive through the gears anyway. The beauty of a good centre drive crank system is the sensors which allow a range of cadence so you can actually 'ride' the underlying bike if you want to - which is where the gears come into play so much more. Gear shifting is at least as important as cadence on a bike like that and you wouldn't want a throttle with a twist-grip shifter.

Riding an amazing bike that feels like riding an amazing bike, through the pedals and gears with a motor adapting to your style is about as good as it can get imho but no doubt others have their own preferences. You need a sophisticated sensor system for it all to work unfortunately, and I can't see that coming into kit form any time soon. The potential is there to really develop the power management / sensor systems in ready-builds so as to deliver an even better riding experience, very high motor output on hill climbs in higher gears without damaging continuous output ratings and possibly more substantial capacity high-discharge batteries, but how far manufacturers are willing to go remains to be seen when they can take their margins for what's being sold already. Consumers need to demand more for their money before manufacturers will give it.

Still haven't been persuaded by hub motors as a 1st choice if you've no physical / age-related impediments. The more I think about it, just seems that a moped would be a heck of a lot more fun if you want to throttle-ride. They don't use much fuel after all and even a 125cc will get you up to 70mph. If you don't want to wear a helmet (or a shirt), pop over to the Balearics on a cheapie and ride one in some decent sunshine ... no-one gives a monkeys over there and I've taken them onto remote dirt tracks many times for a bit of fun without incident.

 

[RobF]

What I like about my Brompton Nano is that it still rides like a Brompton - faults and all.

The weight of the battery in the front-mounted bag deadens the twitchy steering, which is an improvement.

Non-powered Brommie riders who carry luggage say the same.

The motor on mine is about as quiet as they come and the simple throttle control allows it to whirr away unobtrusively in the background.

Less of the cutting in/cutting out effect which all non-throttle bikes have.

Gear changing is not affected at all.

Having the motor on the front hub, and no more than a throttle control, makes the conversion as neat as possible - what little extra junk and wiring there is is concentrated at the front.

So a front hub motor can be a very elegant solution - provided you only want to transmit a 'legal' amount of power.

 

[103Alex1]

Indeed I can see that for a hub-drive bike. The OP was aimed squarely at crank-drive / PAS bikes. The Rohloff has a twist-changer so messing about with a thumb throttle isn't really going to make for an especially elegant solution. Plus there's a limit to what unmodified 250W hub motors with legal controllers are going to deliver in the Peak District or Malvern Hills...

 

[RobF]

Indeed I can see that for a hub-drive bike. The OP was aimed squarely at crank-drive / PAS bikes. The Rohloff has a twist-changer so messing about with a thumb throttle isn't really going to make for an especially elegant solution. Plus there's a limit to what unmodified 250W hub motors with legal controllers are going to deliver in the Peak District or Malvern Hills...

I recently tried Kalkhoff derailleur and hub bikes.

The derailleur was a bit clonky, but I didn't make any riding style allowances for it.

The hub - eight speed - didn't change a couple of times when I wanted it to, but I believe it's like the Sturmey Archer three speed on the Brommie - you need to stop pedalling or even pedal backwards a fraction for it to change - which I didn't do.

The more ebikes I try, the more I think each has an optimum riding style which is easy enough to master, but you are never going to do it on a test ride.

I can see why people like Kalkhoffs, they are very nicely made and finished, and ride well.

As Dave from Kudos fairly pointed out, 50 Cycles is offering the C8 for £1,500 which is something of a bargain - you could pay around that for a Chinese bike which would be much poorer quality.