Cytronex tips

[Pedalo]

Anyone have any ideas about my last 2 questions:
a) If I'm going downhill (>15mph) is it best to switch the motor off? (i.e. is it still consuming power when the bike is running faster than 15mph?)
b) How much does switching the lights on affect range? Do people leave them on by default for max visibility?

My battery conked out on the final hill back to my house. It was a total distance of 15.5 miles for the round trip. Perhaps a little less than I was hoping but adequate for my return journey. To be honest given the battery is about a year old I'm pleased it does any distance at all!
I was pedalling the whole way but not putting in a huge effort. I was also trying to keep the most appropriate power setting:
<5mph - off
5-11mph - low
>11mph - high
I generally kept the motor switched on at all times over 5mph even when going down hill. I had the lights on for the return journey (i.e. half of that 15.5 miles).

Has anyone tried the deep discharge? If so, did you notice much difference?

 

[jerrysimon]

Well now you know it does a 15.5 miles or so try a deep discharge and test it out. It certainly won't harm it to try.

Mark from Cytronex sent me this :

Probably is a good idea to deep cycle the battery – do this after the assistance has run out. Just place the front wheel in a stand so it is free to turn and can’t fall over then switch it to full speed and leave running (ensure children etc. can’t come into contact with the bike of course) until it stops. Then leave for half an hour and do the same again but this time with it on low speed. Then leave the battery a few hours to make sure it is cool, then charge over night.

In normal use you should switch off the charger after the fast charge (when the fan stops).

I have done the above but not run it down to zero again since to see how many miles I get. A lot depends on how you assist. I guess once you have done it if you do the same test using the same cycle pattern that should tell you if you get any more out the battery. Given your cycle pattern 15.5 miles does not sound too bad.

He also told me for support I would need to get the original owner of the bike to mail him so they can update their database to help prevent/identify theft.

I will leave others to comment specifically about lights, which I think hardly effect range and switching off once over 15 mph downhill, as its not assisting I would switch off.


Regards

Jerry

 

[Barnowl]

Anyone have any ideas about my last 2 questions:
a) If I'm going downhill (>15mph) is it best to switch the motor off? (i.e. is it still consuming power when the bike is running faster than 15mph?)
b) How much does switching the lights on affect range? Do people leave them on by default for max visibility?

My battery conked out on the final hill back to my house. It was a total distance of 15.5 miles for the round trip. Perhaps a little less than I was hoping but adequate for my return journey. To be honest given the battery is about a year old I'm pleased it does any distance at all!
I was pedalling the whole way but not putting in a huge effort. I was also trying to keep the most appropriate power setting:
<5mph - off
5-11mph - low
>11mph - high
I generally kept the motor switched on at all times over 5mph even when going down hill. I had the lights on for the return journey (i.e. half of that 15.5 miles).

Has anyone tried the deep discharge? If so, did you notice much difference?

a) I tend to switch off - after all it's only a quick twitch of the brakes. Don't make any difference as far as I can tell though.

b) I can't imagine the lights take enough power to make a difference. I don't leave them on for visibilty but this week have been switching them on in the evening at difficult junctions.

Try the deep discharge. How many miles do you reckon have been done. Divide by 20 and you'll get a rough idea of the number of charges. Less than 100 and it should get about 20 miles depending on use.

Also I've had a couple of trips where my battery has lost it at 15.5miles. This has been on a seriously steep incline towards the end of a 17 miles trip which i never used to do. It has picked up again on the flat both times. Consequent charges mileage has been normal.

 

[Footie]

.... If I'm going downhill (>15mph) is it best to switch the motor off? ....
.... I had the lights on for the return journey (i.e. half of that 15.5 miles) ....
.... Has anyone tried the deep discharge? ....

I don't have a Cytronex, but going by my own experiences: -
I don't think turning off the power on any e-bike, going down hill, makes much difference to power savings.
That said, my Cougar has a LiFePo4 battery and if it's ridden to cut-out it is possible to squeeze another mile or two out of it if the power is turned off for a few minutes. It's something to do with the BMS re-organising the power levels of the cells.
My bike has wired in lights (which I avoid using) and a horrible handlebar switch that I have a habit of knocking on. The lights are very bright (to everyone else) but hard to see when on the bike. Twice I have turned them on by accident and found the bike suffers from reduced power when I hit the Tesco's hill (real effort to get up it) and that’s only a 5 mile round trip.
I'm not sure but I think I read somewhere (on the forum) that it's not a good idea to prop the bike up off the ground and run the battery flat, can take a very long time as no resistance; I believe it's better to ride it until it cuts out.

-----------------------------------------------
Cougar Mountain Electric Bike 36v 200w rear wheel Hub motor (Jul07)
fitted with 10 Ah LiFePo4 battery (Apr08)
Maximum range (road/hills - Cornwall) 18 miles
Maximum range (on flat) 25 miles
.

 

[Fecn]

I'm not sure but I think I read somewhere (on the forum) that it's not a good idea to prop the bike up off the ground and run the battery flat, can take a very long time as no resistance; I believe it's better to ride it until it cuts out.

Low currents are ideal for deep discharge cycles. A battery has to do work to produce amps (hence the reason NiMH batteries get warm in use) Propping the bike up and letting it run with the wheel off the ground is the ideal way to do a deep discharge as it uses a very low current which means the batteries won't be straining themselves to get the power out, and as such, they'll deliver more power and get down to a lower charge level before the cutoff operates.

I'm trying to think of a good analogy here, but the best I can come up with is getting water out of a sponge. When the sponge is full of water, it just flows out nice and easy... As the water runs low, you need to squeeze it to get more out.... or you can just wait for gravity to give you the drips. Even after wringing a sponge, there'll still be water in there... but after a drip-dry, the sponge will be truly drained of water... and the sponge fabric won't have been strained by the wringing process.

Edit : Here's a bit more...

When NiMH cells run out of charge, their voltage level doesn't change much initially... What changes is their ability to deliver high currents, and the more current you try to pull, the more the voltage of the cell will sag. If once cell in the battery pack runs out of charge first, and as such is only able to deliver 1 amp of current without the voltage failing, whereas the rest of the cells are still able to deliver 5A of current to the motor the low-voltage pack cutoff will still operate because the pack voltage overall has fallen too low.. However, if you're only pulling 1 amp of current in total, then you can continue to drain all of the cells for longer before the voltage-sag rears it's head and the cutoff kicks in.

 

[jerrysimon]

I'm not sure but I think I read somewhere (on the forum) that it's not a good idea to prop the bike up off the ground and run the battery flat, can take a very long time as no resistance; I believe it's better to ride it until it cuts out.

Don't forget this is a NiMh battery.

After running down the battery it took about 5 mins left on propped up to stop turning. Then left for a while and another 5 mins at the lower speed.

On the charge up leave it overnight even when its finished but as Mark says only for charging after a deep discharge. Normally switch it off after the green light comes on. It never really takes longer than about 1.5 hrs to charge before the green light come on.

One thing I did notice the other day, was that I charged the battery just before I left the house and noticed a considerable higher boost in power for the first mile or two compared to when I relied on a battery charged the night before. This is consistant again with what Mark advises.

I can confirm the battery gets warm both after charging and after heavy use, again consistant with NiMh battery technology I have used in my model aero hobby.

Regards

Jerry

 

[Pedalo]

The bike has done just over 1000 miles unless the odo's been reset at any time.

I was wondering if I could just leave the lights on to achieve the deep dischgarge in a more convenient way but perhaps there's some danger that it might dischage it too much. I guess I'll just need to get inventive with the garden furniture to prop up the bike somehow. Any tips? I'm woried I'll snap the computer light if I turn the bike upside down...

 

[Barnowl]

The bike has done just over 1000 miles unless the odo's been reset at any time.

I was wondering if I could just leave the lights on to achieve the deep dischgarge in a more convenient way but perhaps there's some danger that it might dischage it too much. I guess I'll just need to get inventive with the garden furniture to prop up the bike somehow. Any tips? I'm woried I'll snap the computer light if I turn the bike upside down...

I use 2 high backed dining chairs either side of the handlebars. I use a couple of hand towells to protect the hadndlebars When the wifes out of course.

The LED lamp can be pushed down a tad (Ithink there's adjuster to slack off somewhere) - just enough to clear the ground when you invert the bike. I leave mine like it - no problems.

1000 miles sounds good to me. Most probably accurate as well. My speedo battery is 13 months old and still clocking miles nicely so I doubt yours has had a battery change/reset.

 

[jerrysimon]

NiMh technology is different and to be honest running the battery right down by running the motor or even the lights will not damage it. If it was left deep discharged for months maybe then it might but in this application its fine.

As said you can balance the handle bars on a couple of chairs as I also did.

I stayed by the bike whilst it ran just to make sure nothing happened. It only took 5 mins then a wait 30 mins or so (go do something else) and then another 5 mins watching it, let the battery cool down for an hour or so then recharge.

Regards

Jerry

 

[Pedalo]

...When the wifes out of course...

Now that is a top tip. Must admit I'm beginning to think my long suffering wife is getting a little fed up with my latest obsession. Must remember not to use the best tea towels to wipe off all the accumulated oil and grease...

 

[HarryB]

I was wondering if I could just leave the lights on to achieve the deep dischgarge in a more convenient way but perhaps there's some danger that it might dischage it too much.

Please do not discharge the battery using the lights. I don't think (though I could be proved wrong) that there is a low voltage cut-off for the lights as there is for the motor so it will take the voltage down to zero - not a good idea. In fact I think there is something in the manual about it (do you have a copy?). You can use the lights for up to an hour after the motor has cut out but no more.

 

[Barnowl]

Yes:

DON'T

Use the lights for more than 1 hour after assistance has expired, this can damage the battery and permanently reduce its capacity.

Also

Don't leave the battery plugged in on the bike when not in use. This will eventually flatten the battery and could permanently reduce its capacity.

 

[themutiny]

Yes

Again - DONT do this.

However, the 2009 range does not allow for a deep discharge in the manner described due to the pedal sensor. How am I supposed to achieve this desired deep discharge, I wonder?

 

[flecc]

Running a battery down with the wheel off the ground can take forever since the consumption is so low. Best way is to use it on the roads very locally under power until it cuts out. Starting from an already fairly low point that doesn't take very long and it needn't leave you far to pedal back without power. If you've got the odd steep climb near to home, just keep riding up and down that and it will discharge very quickly indeed. These are the techniques I've always used, but I'm lucky (?) in that I live up a steep hill.
.

 

[Xcytronex]

I never fully discharged the battery once on my Cytronex not even initially-like wise I never fully conditioned/ ran down either of my Torq 1 batteries.The Cytronex was still giving 20 + miles after a year and over 2000 mls -the first Ezee battery lasted 2 years [100 mls weekly deristricted] the second is still going strong [hopefuly !!!].I have to say when the Ezee battery failed it did so within the space of a few weeks.

 

[Pedalo]

O.K. I guess I wont be using the lights to run down the batteries.
I did get the piece of paper that mentions not to use the lights for too long after the motor cut out but I just wondered if it would be O.K. for the special case of deep discharge.

I did do the deep discharge last night though. None of our chairs have high enough backs to support the handlebars so in the end I just lay the bike on its side and moved it around until the front wheel was off the ground.

The bike had been used on the road until the motor cut out. Then I let it run on the high setting laying on its side as described above - It still took over an hour to stop! Then I left if for the half hour and ran on the low setting. This time it was 5 mins. On charging the battery it only charged for one hour before the fan cut out and the green light came on. Is this normal? I was expecting about an hour and a half especially after the deep discharge. I then left it on charge all night as advised. I'll let you know how many miles I get later.

 

[jerrysimon]

An hour does seem a little short especially after your deep discharge. I would expect at least and hour and half.

Oh well you will soon know when you test ride it to see how long you get. That said it really does depend on how you ride it and how much power you use comapared to pedalling.

Good luck.

Regards

Jerry

 

[Barnowl]

It's a bit of a black art this deep discharge. I'd have expected 90 mins worth of charge as well but 60 mins might be OK. I haven't done my battery yet. Let us know how you get on.

 

[Pedalo]

Well a couple of days after the deep discharge it's now taking 1 hour 20 mins to charge and I got to 18.5 miles before the motor cut out which I think is getting closer to what others are seeing.

I think the range people see will vary hugely and depends on hills towards the end of the range. It's always a hill on which the motor cuts out. For example if my trip consisted of another 5 flat miles where I wasn't demanding too much assistance I'm sure the bike would have covered it easily and I'd be reporting a range of > 20 miles.

Overall I'm still delighted! If you buy a second hand electric bike you probably should expect the battery to be knackered. In this case I get a very usable range and I doubt it's much down on what it was when new and it easily covers my 15 mile round trip to work and home.

 

[jerrysimon]

Pedalo,

I am glad it all turned out ok. Mine took about 1hr 15mins this morning to charge but then my round trip commute to work is only 10 miles. It does seem to make the bike fly more if you charge just before you cycle.

Sounds like your battery is fine. I too was worried when I purchased my 18 month old Cytronex re the battery. I think NiMh batteries are probably a safer bet and more forgiving to a little abuse than the newer Li-Ion ones.

Like you I am thrilled with my Cytronex and quite frankly if you can find a good second hand one they are a bargain. I am not sure I would want to pay £1400 for an equivalent new one though.

That said I have started looking at Bromptons

This whole bike/ebike thing is so addictive and I am having so much fun.

PS broke my record last night and got home in 22 mins

Regards

Jerry