CycleCharge: Anyone need e-bike motor, kit or battery?

[selrahc1992]

Restored from last night. I apologise in advance for any patronising tone:


Thanks so much for the reply Morphix, that's brilliant.


I was really excited when I read your post first of all, thinking 'yay, cheap batteries for me'. But have to admit, if I were a UK retailer of batteries or kits reading this, I'd be having kittens. Your grant funding means you don't have to charge prices which give you a margin which puts food on your table. That could damage existing suppliers who have no way of competing.


If a supplier has capital tied up in stock that's more difficult or impossible to shift because of that, that could mean cashflow problems and writedowns and losses and even failure in the case of some who are just squeezing by. If that were just a consequence of market-led competition I'd say fine, but it's not.


I think ebikes are expensive* in the UK, and imagine that does limit takeup, but wonder if there's a way for you to run your grant-funded activity in such a way that supports the diversity and even the increase of existing retailers, whose health is (alongside the competitive prices which you are aiming at) also important for the UK ebike market and ebike takeup.


You sound to me pretty skilled in dealing with wholesalers - I bet your wholesale prices are a heck of a lot lower than what UK retailers are getting. I bet their margins are pretty thin on batteries and kits. If that's true you could actually help them increase their margins and build sustainable price-competition were you to consider just supplying them alone. I see no ethical or market problems with that at all, on the contrary. It could be the best way to leverage the grant funding for maximum impact. Although I don't know how EU state aid rules work in relation to this.


If you were to supply the public directly, through a separate business unit, I think it ought to be at prices which have been calculated as though there were no subsidy involved at all (leaving out no hypothetical cost), otherwise the grant could have the function of actually undermining the industry it's trying to stimulate.


I hope I don't sound offensive in saying this but feel I have to state my thoughts frankly.



*N.B. I believe it is a fundamental teaching in business economics that immature industries (or those at the point of the business cycle with limited supply and greater demand) actually require high prices in order to attract market entrants, with the promise of their being able to obtain real profits. If prices are reduced suddenly without a corresponding massive increase in demand and sales across EACH of the market participants' businesses (which will only very unusually occur), then in theory you get a wave of bankruptcies, withdrawals from the market on the business side, and limited new business entrants because there are no notable profits to be made (meanwhile the dedicated specialists have left). Businesses leave until there is a situation of undersupply, where a few businesses alone can set prices because there is slightly more demand than supply, and no great competition. That's how a grant subsidy for supply of a good, can actually increase the price of that good in the long run. So I think in order to fulfil your goal of getting people on ebikes (i.e. helping lower prices while protecting markets) you're going to have to think more about how to do it in a way which doesn't damage those markets, but supports them. Hence my thought maybe you should think about two units, one which just sells to retailers, another which sells to the public but at prices which are calculated to match in every way those which ordinary non-subsidised businesses would have to pay.

Just a note of caution - I only read the one economics textbook. But I think I read it pretty well.


.............

Added points:


If this were a market for services then things would be different - services are often confined to a locality, but for goods you're just introducing market deflation: it's a small market, and every would-be purchaser who looks at your post may postpone a purchase at market price, in favour of your sales in which long run actual costs way exceed your long run market income (that's the requirement for any business to exist).

Re others' NGO examples:

I don't think the NGO examples others are making hold good because they're for services and not goods. Where they're for goods they either introduce vital goods and do them in conjunction with local businesses, i.e. supply them to retailers and don't retail them directly, or they're creating a new business with no prior product (e.g. clean water inventions) and will still find third party retailers; or they introduce for moral reasons subsidised vital goods e.g. food, which DO destroy local markets. The moral reason, i.e. avoiding starvation, has to be strong enough to justify destroying local and national markets (in the internet age). I think Co2 isn't the only good reason to promote ebike use, it's the pleasure in them and the opportunity to enjoy the countryside that they bring to people who aren't spring chickens, which seems to me a very strong moral good. But even together, co2 and pleasure are not the kind of moral emergency situation in which (as in the case of starvation) you're exchanging one set of catastrophic circumstances for another set of differently catastrophic circumstances. And even if it is catastrophic, then if you're justifying yourself morally, it's then morally obligatory on you to a) find the solution which does least harm in itself and doesn't do more harm than good, and b) find a solution which sustains itself in the long run using CONSERVATIVE methods, i.e. not proposing that we have a massive revolution in supply from the private to the state and voluntary sector.

MSF (Medicins Sans Frontieres) has succesfully managed to provide affordable HIV drugs (http://www.msf.org/article/msf-and-ukrainian-ngo-criticise-ukrainian-hivaids-deal) - i can imaginie that could be upsetting to multinational drug companies (and that one could be concerned about their profit margins), but i am fundamentally not - at all, in any sense.

 

[jonathan75]

MSF (Medicins Sans Frontieres) has succesfully managed to provide affordable HIV drugs (http://www.msf.org/article/msf-and-ukrainian-ngo-criticise-ukrainian-hivaids-deal) - i can imaginie that could be upsetting to multinational drug companies (and that one could be concerned about their profit margins), but i am fundamentally not - at all, in any sense.

It's always good to see people like you with fundamentally moral instincts, trying to be as decent as possible, so it's a shame that (like so many very decent people) your analysis in this case is unsound. Your example bears no comparison with ebikes in the UK. You can't compare not having an ebike with not living. Nor can you compare small ebike retailers set up by individuals risking their life savings, with huge multinational drug companies.

And such healthcare is or ought to be a public or quasi-public good in any case, i.e. not one provided solely or even largely by the free market, because markets tend to undersupply certain vital goods at acceptable prices, healthcare being one. Look at the NHS - 8% of GDP for universal coverage against 15% of GDP for partial coverage historically in the USA. Ebikes are not a vital good. And the free market is not undersupplying them necessarily, and we can say that partly because the consequence of present supply levels, are not a humanitarian catastrophe.

Indeed as Trex rightly pointed out, if you draw sales from market-based providers, you actually destroy existing supply channels with nothing serious to replace them. These "supply channels" are also people's livelihoods, which they've attained through hard work and personal risk in a volatile marketplace. So even if you do think ebikes are a vital good then 1) you actually endanger rather than support their supply by attempting an unsustainable centralised non-profit volunteer and subsidy-led supply revolution, and 2) you destroy jobs and businesses which have been built up sustainably in the marketplace. These are two major harms which I think are completely avoidable.

They are avoidable by the simple expedient I recommended of a) only supplying to retailers, and/or b) only supplying to the public at what would be the true market cost, apportioning in all hypothetical historical, present, and future costs including making a profit, paying onesself and everyone else a decent wage (including current volunteers), paying market interest on startup capital, premises costs, overheads, etc etc.

 

[jonathan75]

Everybody makes a nice little earner out of them. The suppliers can get better prices. The customers can get better prices, and the employees can get a better salary. Basically, everybody shares the profits. Bear in mind that many normal businesses are also non-profit. How do you think Google and others avoid paying tax in the UK?

Google isn't a non-profit at all, it is taxed nothing in the UK because its UK profits don't exceed its UK expenses. Its revenue almost all belongs to its Irish sister or parent company, which is taxed in Ireland at the Irish tax rate of verytiny%. The rule against double taxation means it has thereby fulfilled its pan-EU tax obligations.

As for suppliers getting better prices, yes, but why ought any rational customer buy it from them when they can get it cheaper from the guy who charges no profit because he's got a grant, volunteers, and offers two-year guarantees as standard because he has no breaking-even to worry about?

As for employees getting a better salary, I hope I've demonstrated in my second paragraph why that's incorrect. They'll get a worse salary. They're competing with volunteers and someone who's got a grant and no need to make a market return.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Google isn't a non-profit at all, it is taxed nothing in the UK because its UK profits don't exceed its UK expenses. Its revenue almost all belongs to its Irish sister or parent company, which is taxed in Ireland at the Irish tax rate of verytiny%. The rule against double taxation means it has thereby fulfilled its pan-EU tax obligations.

As for suppliers getting better prices, yes, but why ought any rational customer buy it from them when they can get it cheaper from the guy who charges no profit because he's got a grant, volunteers, and offers two-year guarantees as standard because he has no breaking-even to worry about?

As for employees getting a better salary, I hope I've demonstrated in my second paragraph why that's incorrect. They'll get a worse salary. They're competing with volunteers and someone who's got a grant and no need to make a market return.

Ok - if you know best. You certainly know a lot more about it than me!

 

[jonathan75]

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A nonprofit organization (NPO) is an organization that uses surplus revenues to achieve its goals rather than distributing them as profit or dividends.[1][2]

Although nonprofit organizations are permitted to generate surplus revenues, they must be retained by the organization for its self-preservation, expansion, or plans.[3]NPOs have controlling members or a board of directors. Many have paid staff including management, whereas others employ unpaid volunteers and even executives who work with or without compensation (occasionally nominal).[4] Where there is a token fee, in general, it is used to meet legal requirements for establishing a contract between the executive and the organization.

Designation as a nonprofit does not mean that the organization does not intend to make a profit, but rather that the organization has no owners and that the funds realized in the operation of the organization will not be used to benefit any owners. The extent to which an NPO can generate surplus revenues may be constrained or use of surplus revenues may be restricted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/

Kinninvie, that may be correct but that doesn't address at least two major problems.

1) that a subsidised nonprofit is not the same as a market-based nonprofit. The latter will have to fund its establishment and ongoing and future costs and salaries out of its market revenues, the former doesn't. The Wikipedia example includes both types. Profit is the surplus left over after paying rent, pensions, stock purchase costs, salaries, marketing, electricity, interest and principal on loans, you name it, all out of market revenues. Morphix isn't afaik currently looking at covering anything out of market revenues except for replacement costs of stock (if that - as the guarantees were so generous).

2) A subsidised nonprofit will destroy competing market-based nonprofits and also ordinary businesses, because the latter two can't compete on price with a subsidised organisation. Think about the consequences of that.

 

[selrahc1992]

apologies for another technical question - I gather from BMSbattery and the previous conversation Morphix that those bottle batteries with built in controllers only work with hub motors that have built in speed sensors. Does anyone know whether that means they really wont work with a BPM2? I'm thinking of a DIY build but want to have something that would be very tidy and easy to start with but could have some head room for increasing power later. As a separate issue - if you supplied a 48V battery in a wrapping what form factor would it be - bottle battery, square or one of those rear rack types? many thanks

apologies to get back to a technical issue - I humbly concede that all of you seem to know a great deal more than me about how capitalist systems should work - but does anyone know how to make a battery with integrated controller work with a BPM2 type motor with external speed sensor? many, many thanks

 

[trex]

The BPM motors need a controller with a minimum rating of 17A but more typically, 20A.
In theory, your controller can be very small, emits virtually no heat, presents virtually no danger so could be integrated inside the same housing as the battery pack. In practice, controllers need to be housed in aluminium casing for heat dispersal and preventing fire risk, so the casing is 35% bigger than a 250W controller.
The answer to your question is don't even try.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I take it you mean the batteries with the integrated 20A controllers. The smaller cyclindrical batteries normally have a 15A controller, which is a bit low as Trex mentioned.

To answer your question, thanks to Friendly1uk for actually doing it, you buy the external wheel speed sensor, take the cover off the controller, elongate a hole on it to accept the wire from the sensor. Solder the red to a 5v pad on the pcb, where the PAS or throttle one is soldered, and the black 0v where any black ground is. Unsolder the white wire (from the motor connector) and solder the signal wire from the speed sensor there.

There's one other thing. BPMs tend to have the older bullet connectors on the phase wires and the white block hall connector instead of the newer 9-pin type that comes out of those batteries. You need to check which connector you have on the motor. It might be worth getting the separate motor lead with the 9-pin connectors so that you can cut the connector off and solder the wires to your motor cable.

 

[trex]

...
They are avoidable by the simple expedient I recommended of a) only supplying to retailers, and/or b) only supplying to the public at what would be the true market cost, apportioning in all hypothetical historical, present, and future costs including making a profit, paying onesself and everyone else a decent wage (including current volunteers), paying market interest on startup capital, premises costs, overheads, etc etc.

If Morphix follows your solutions a) only supplying to retailers - retailers need branding support, those who resell/badge unknown brands run a huge risk of getting a dodgy batch and can't return it, b) only supplying to the public at what would be the true market cost - that's better but would attract hostile reactions from other traders.
IMHO, the best strategy for new startups is bringing in innovative products that they can sell at slightly above average market prices.

 

[selrahc1992]

I take it you mean the batteries with the integrated 20A controllers. The smaller cyclindrical batteries normally have a 15A controller, which is a bit low as Trex mentioned.

To answer your question, thanks to Friendly1uk for actually doing it, you buy the external wheel speed sensor, take the cover off the controller, elongate a hole on it to accept the wire from the sensor. Solder the red to a 5v pad on the pcb, where the PAS or throttle one is soldered, and the black 0v where any black ground is. Unsolder the white wire (from the motor connector) and solder the signal wire from the speed sensor there.

There's one other thing. BPMs tend to have the older bullet connectors on the phase wires and the white block hall connector instead of the newer 9-pin type that comes out of those batteries. You need to check which connector you have on the motor. It might be worth getting the separate motor lead with the 9-pin connectors so that you can cut the connector off and solder the wires to your motor cable.

many thanks, that's very helpful and sounds like something I could manage - i will go ahead and let you all know how it works out (at least no risk of burning a BPM2 out against a hill while under-currenting it i guess)

 

[jonathan75]

If Morphix follows your solutions a) only supplying to retailers - retailers need branding support, those who unknown brands run a huge risk of getting a dodgy batch and can't return it, b) only supplying to the public at what would be the true market cost - that's better but would attract hostile reactions from other traders.
IMHO, the best strategy for new startups is bringing in innovative products that you can sell at slightly above average market prices.

Yes a) (the absence of brand support) would be a problem if the end-retailer's wholesale purchase agreement with Morphix excluded the 2-3 year warranty which Morphix said the manufacturer was offering. But it needn't necessarily exclude such a warranty. Repairability could be a problem, depending on how the manufacturer has built them. There are ways around that, such as telling the end-buyer that they oughtn't to ride up long tall hills without pedalling hard; an agreement for the manufacturer to send out quick replacements (although I do see that raising the cost - a warning about a long delay in replacement could be incorporated in to the original warranty though). So, brand support issues seem to boil down to reliability, repairability, and warranty follow-through. Some more easily solved than others.

As for hostile reactions to a retailer, that's trickier, not sure what to say about that. Could make it difficult to run wholesale and retail businesses together. You might get some new people deciding they want to start up businesses, if Morphix actively advertises wholesale only prices, and I suppose fly by night popup retailers could theoretically undermine existing businesses - all because of the subsidy; so it might be best for Morphix to stick to supplying established businesses.

I think you're probably right about the way you mentioned, being the best way to do a startup, but there are some famous ones which focussed on cheap: easyjet, ryanair. I've got a weakness for cheap. It is a kind of innovation too (because part of the product is the price, and part of the innovation is the business model which supports the price/product). Tough though.

Maybe I'm wrong about all of my criticisms, maybe there is a place for a grant-funded volunteer-assisted scheme for selling low-cost ebike kits to the public. Maybe that doesn't directly compete with and undermine businesses. Maybe it would even increase their business - somehow (??? just being devil's advocate) I'd be interested in what any retailers reading this think. Maybe they think I should lighten up and I'm all wrong and they're fine with it. I worry there are a few kit sellers out there at the moment who might suffer by getting lumped with existing stock they can't shift.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Maybe I'm wrong about all of my criticisms, maybe there is a place for a grant-funded volunteer-assisted scheme for selling low-cost ebike kits to the public. Maybe that doesn't directly compete with and undermine businesses. Maybe it would even increase their business - somehow (??? just being devil's advocate)

You're getting warm now.

 

[klepper]

Hello, I am not from the uk, but would love to get your recommendation regarding reliable factories in china to buy ebike kit from. Many thank!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Most of the factories make and sell components rather than kits. If you tell us exactly what you want to buy, we can probably point you in the right direction.

 

[trex]

Hello, I am not from the uk, but would love to get your recommendation regarding reliable factories in china to buy ebike kit from. Many thank!

buying from China differs from buying from an EU country on one particular point: you can't send back something to China. This is because the Chinese administration have a very complicated procedure for importation such that most Chinese vendors would rather send you a new part than accept returns for repair.
It follows from that situation that guarantee from the factory is good so long you continue buying from them. If you are a non-trade buyer, you would be better off buying from well known vendors like bmsbattery.com

 

[morphix]

I can't see how the 'not for profit' model work in the real economy.
Profit drives up quality of service. Without profit, you cannot guarantee a minimum level of service to your customers. For example, what if you decide to move on to another job? If the business model is not sufficiently profitable, then it would be impossible to find another management team to take it over.
Without profit, the company has no way of growing. Its competency will stagnate and the customers be deprived of future products and support.

In a nutshell.. economy of scale, and subsidies.

Just because we're selling at close to cost price, doesn't mean we're selling rubbish or stuff that isn't as good quality as goods sold at 3-4x the price. We're just a not-for-profit org that's all.

The motors, batteries and kits we supply are some of the very best quality available for the DIY market. I've spoken chosen two factories to work with who take QC very seriously, and have exclusivity distribution agreements with them.

I certainly can and will personally guarantee the quality of everything I supply, both batteries and kits/parts. I have that assurance from the factories, which goes well beyond the industry norm (3 years on kits/parts and 2 years on batteries).

With all due respect, I have a degree in business, so I know what I'm doing and non-profit business models work very well in the real world, there's plenty of examples.

I expected this post thread and new activities under the CycleCharge banner to ruffle a few feathers among business members... so let me provide some assurances here.. firstly, CycleCharge is no threat, I'm not trying to put you all out of business!

Secondly, CycleCharge is not going to be supplying kits or any other parts, only batteries and chargers.

This post, and offer to supply kits and parts at cost price, is a one-off. I just happen to be placing an order for some stuff, and just wanted to let anyone piggy-back onto the order and save some money, while saving myself some money by sharing the freight cost.

But all you business members, please don't start worrying that this is going to be a regular thing. I won't be doing this again, this is strictly a one-off.

In future, I will be supplying parts and kits through a separate commercial company with a completely separate website from CycleCharge. There will be NO preferential treatment for my other company through CycleCharge (it'll just be a normal sponsor and advertiser the same as other companies are). I'll be making an announcement on my new company when that website is ready. At that time, I will be registering as a trade-member on this forum. My kits/parts prices, whilst being competitive, won't be cost price, or non-profit. Yes you'll have some competition, but it won't be an attempt to monopolise the market I assure you.

CycleCharge is a strictly a not-for-profit company though, it's been incorporated that way and is asset-locked and will be under close scrutiny by members and the Charities Commission. It's purpose is continued expansion of the free Charge Point network, whilst also offering affordable longer-lasing and better designed batteries, along with super-compact chargers (often available to use freely at Charge Points). That's all we're doing.

Since batteries are the most expensive part of an e-bike usually (and many end up in landfill unnecessarily), we're lowering the cost of replacing batteries/converting e-bikes and moving towards attempting to standardise this aspect of the industry alongside the Charge Point network with more emphasis on the role e-bikes can play in lowering CO2.

CycleCharge is happy to supply both members and trade. And also happy to work with other companies who may want their own battery and chargers to a specific spec or with their own logo/brand on.

 

[morphix]

Non-profit doesn't mean that you can't sell stuff for more than you paid for it.

You can still get a margin from buying and selling stuff without making a profit, i.e. you sell the stuff for more than you pay for it, then deduct the business costs, which include salaries for employees, so they don't have to be volunteers, although volunteers always help to keep the costs down.

Many registered charities have chief executives on six figure salaries as well as lots of volunteers at the bottom level.

Exactly thanks d8veh. I think there's some confusion over what not-for-profit means. People need to think of CycleCharge as essentially a charity that engages in some commercial activities but not-for-profit, that's all.

We obviously have to cover our costs and receive some revenue, but profit from sales is not our overriding concern or business model since I'm planning to have CycleCharge heavily subsidised and financed by CO2-offsetting from the wider economy. We want to promote e-bike usage and affordability for everyone and bring the cost of ownership down, particularly on batteries, and to make batteries more environmentally friendly.

We will have different pricing, with members having access to cheaper prices than trade buyers, and limited quantities on what members can buy to prevent them entering the trade market.

We don't absolutely need a lot of volunteers to make this company work, but we certainly acknowledge and appreciate their help and working as a team enables us to achieve much more. As we receive more revenues, we'll distribute out monies to volunteers where appropriate.

 

[morphix]

buying from China differs from buying from an EU country on one particular point: you can't send back something to China. This is because the Chinese administration have a very complicated procedure for importation such that most Chinese vendors would rather send you a new part than accept returns for repair.
It follows from that situation that guarantee from the factory is good so long you continue buying from them. If you are a non-trade buyer, you would be better off buying from well known vendors like bmsbattery.com

Yes buying from China is a very complicated/risky and expensive business, if you're dealing with unknown goods or factories. Unfortunately there's a distinct lack of quality control awareness in some Chinese factories, and a lot of unscrupulous people who aren't honest or straightforward to deal with.

This is partly why CycleCharge is entering the market to remove that risk and reduce that cost. I've worked hard over the last year to build up a close working relationship based on trust and honesty with two very reliable and well established factories. They gave given me an exclusivity distribution agreement because they're willing to take a leap of faith in our future 'economy of scale' in our business model, and I'm taking a leap of faith in their continuing to maintain QC and to honour their warranties. So far, I've had no problems with the stuff I've received and have converted several Mezzo's using their kits and batteries, and begun building up a stock of parts.

My advice to anyone who wants to deal with Chinese factories is tread very carefully. Do your homework/research into the factories..how long have been established? Ask to see paperwork to back the up. Are they certified to export goods to the EU? Again, ask for paperwork. Ask for some video of the production line area with an intro from your contact/factory manager, that's usually a quick way of establishing genuine factories from the 'agent' man-in-the-middle types who operate from home but have websites pretending to be an actual factory. When you're satisfied everything is in order, order some samples, but don't rush in and buy pallet loads of stuff on your first order.

When you are placing larger orders or regularly, don't use Air freight to ship from China unless it's very small orders or sample parts, use sea freight. Delivery takes a long while (typically 4-6 weeks) but you'll save a bundle. And don't let the Chinese factory or their agents handle your shipping (they often exploit people who are new to importing and not familiar with freight costs), shop around for quotes (play carriers off against each other for better deals), use a reliable UK shipping firm and request FOB prices from the Chinese.

An important tip too and reason why using sea freight is better for those who haven't imported before... import tax (Duty and Import VAT) is charged in a manner where freight cost inflates the amount of tax you pay. So the cheaper your freight cost is, the less import tax you pay. It can vary, but be prepared to pay about 25-35% tax on your order total.

Another tip, despite what shipping agents may tell you, import taxes don't need to be deferred (paid on their account immediately at port of entry), and can be paid directly to HMRC if you ask your carrier to notify you and raise an invoice. In my experience, there's no delay or problem doing it that way, HMRC welcome direct tax payments and clear goods thru customs quickly as soon as you pay. You'll save the deferment fee which can be as much as £50.

 

[trex]

...
With all due respect, I have a degree in business, so I know what I'm doing and non-profit business models work very well in the real world, there's plenty of examples.

I hope the business model will work for you. I remain skeptical about the scope for obtaining CO2 reduction grants and subsidies. BTW, deferrement facility (if you need it) costs you typically 1% of the amount.

 

[morphix]

LAST ORDERS GUYS!!!

OK guys, it's 'last orders' today before I begin invoicing everyone and place the order with China. I've got all your orders sorted cost-wise, it's just the freight side of things I'm doing now. I'm hoping to have it wrapped up today.

Sorry it's dragged on a bit due to the holidays and thanks for everyone's patience.

So, today is your last chance to add anything else to your order. And for those who haven't seen this thread or decided to order yet, to place a new request and order anything you need, from a complete kit, to a motor, to a battery, or a dozen thumb throttles!, whatever you need, at cost price.

For small parts/urgent items, I'll use TNT or FedEx, and for the bulk of the order and the less urgent stuff, sea freight, to keep freight and taxes to a minimum for everyone. Anyone who needs stuff urgently though can request airfreight if you're prepared to pay more for delivery and higher import taxes (which are charged on freight as well as the goods).

As to the freight cost distribution to members individually, I'm just playing around with a spreadsheet to decide how best to do this in the most fairest way possible. I may just divide the cost by the number of people ordering, else do it proportionately by weight/order spend on the air-freight side.

I'll post up a copy of my sheet with all the orders on and the total end cost once it's done. Then if everyone is happy, I'll invoice you all from PayPal and place the order with China once the funds are received. Those who want to pay by Credit/Debit card directly can do that over the phone.

Please note, pro-forma invoices will be sent with your goods showing the exact end cost. This may differ from the amount you were invoiced on PayPal. There may be a bit more to pay if the freight or taxes cost is higher than predicted, but it's unlikely to be much. If there's any saving made, I'll refund this. I'll post all the invoices up and Customs taxes so everyone can see.

NOTE: Once the goods arrive in UK, you can opt for economy courier 3-4 days delivery (<£6), express next day (<£12, delivery to a local collection point (at £6), or free collection from my warehouse in Redditch.