CycleCharge: Anyone need e-bike motor, kit or battery?

[morphix]

Hi all,

I'm about to place an order with a reliable factory in China for some e-bike batteries we work with that also supplies e-bike motors, and full conversion kits. CycleCharge is now expanding the Charge Point project into manufacturing and providing affordable e-bike batteries.

If anyone would like to order a bottle battery, regular battery, or an e-bike kit, motor or any spare parts, please could you contact me directly and let me know asap as we're going to be ordering very shortly for a delivery expected early in the New Year.

Just send me details of what you want, and once we have all the requests in, I'll send you an invoice quote for the full price to pay including import costs, and if you want to proceed, you can place your order.

If anyone has any questions or requests, feel free to post on this thread or contact myself directly and I'll get back to you as quickly as I can.

Regards,

Paul Rogers
CycleCharge Limited - A non-profit community interest project.
Co-founder & Trustee Director

CYCLECHARGE NEWS UPDATE - Cheap Bottle Batteries & E-bike Kits

We've been getting requests and interest over the past fortnight in the bottle batteries. For those who haven't heard and are interested, we can supply bottle batteries with the mounting fixtures so you can fix the battery to the downtube on your bike and the batteries are fully weather-proof. They are available in 24v or 36v and have 9Ah capacity and are fitted with Samsung 2600 cells (with or without an integrated e-bike controller - see below for additional parts available that work with the controller). We can supply these bottle batteries for around £100+import taxes and a bit for courier cost, so it's a lot cheaper than some of the big brand e-bike batteries.

I'll attached a pictures of the bottle battery in question and the kits and LCD consoles for anyone interested, but soon all these items will be on the new CycleCharge website store at www.cyclecharge.org.uk.

The battery is Lithium-Ion and comes a 2 year warranty. The first 12 months is guaranteed against failure and we'll replace it with a new one, if it should fail. If the battery fails in the 2nd year, we'll either repair, or replace, at our discretion (providing the battery has been used and charged regularly and there is no sign of physical damage and the battery hasn't been opened up).

CycleCharge Ltd is a non-profit company Limited by Guarantee. Battery sales is a new off-shoot from our original free-to-use public Charge Point project (see our website for more details).

As project manager, I'm in the process of moving the existing website to a new server and replacing it with a much more updated modern website which will include a webstore for the batteries and chargers.

Just to reiterate, we're non-profit and do not make any profit on the sale of batteries or anything else. So why do we sell these items? Well it's intended to help lower the cost of e-bike ownership and encourage more wider ownership . By combining individual purchases into single orders, we're able to benefit from economy of scale, pass on trade discounts, and also make it safer and easier for people to order items from China.

For those interested, in addition to the bottle batteries, we can also supply:

• 24v or 36v 10Ah rectangle batteries for £80-£100 (48v and higher Ah capacities available on request).
• High quality light-weight hub motors front or rear (2kg motor 250W 24v or 36v 25km/h / 15 mph) for £41.
• As above in a high quality e-bike conversion kit with the motor spoked into a double-wall rim with controller, integrated wire loom with quality colour coded water-proof connectors, weather-proof LCD console, thumb or twist grip throttle, PAS and brake sensor (spoked in a double-walled rim, for any wheel size, front or rear, for caliper or disc brakes, with or without 8-speed gear cassette) for £90.
• As above, but with a super-compact front-wheel drive kit (1.2kg motor 200W 24v or 36v - 20km/h / 12 mph) for £110 - this is available in 16" wheel rim suitable for Brompton, in UK stock for immediate dispatch .
• Additional separate parts: including specialist LCD's (all user programmable for PAS levels and some with cruise control), spare controllers, half or twist grip throttles, handlebar switches and cruise control buttons, PAS sensors, in-line brake sensors, brake levers with sensors built-in, faster 3hr battery chargers (normal charger cycle is 7 hrs). Prices on request and vary, but typically only a few pounds.

If anyone wants to order any of these items, we can have them delivered usually within 7-10 working days (sometimes may take a little bit longer due to lead time, as the factory we work actually manufacturers the kits and batteries) by FedEx. I take everyones orders, then place a single order, so you don't have to pay the usual courier '£15 VAT deferment fee'. And because several items are coming in one order, the courier cost is a lot less than it would be if you ordered alone, further more, we provide quality assurance oversight (see below).

PLEASE NOTE: The prices quoted are accurate estimates and may fluctuate slightly due to exchange rates and import taxes. Prices are exclusive of import duty (typically 3-4%) and VAT (20%) and a bit towards the courier cost. Adding on 25% to these prices, gives you a reasonable idea of the end cost.

WHY ORDER THROUGH US: CycleCharge Ltd is a non-profit community-interest company. What it costs us, is all it costs you. By ordering together though, you can order more simply with your credit or debit card, and we all save money. More importantly you benefit from CycleCharge being able to easily back-up warranties as we carry spares and replacement items in UK stock.

PAYMENT OPTIONS: Credit or Debit card over the phone, PayPal or BACS Faster Payment, or Cheque. Payment must be made upfront before delivery. If delivery doesn't happen for any reason or you wish to cancel your order before goods have been shipped (within 7 working days), you'll be fully refunded of course.

DELIVERY OPTIONS: Items are sent to you from the UK by courier (typically overnight) and the cost is no more than £10 to anywhere on the UK mainland - sometimes less for smaller orders. Local customers are welcome to collect their orders in person. We can also use local collection courier drop-off points in some cases for those customers working and not in to take delivery.

QUALITY ASSURANCE: All items are fully tested before we send them to you, so you can be sure nothing will be DOA (dead on arrival), or sent to you untested/faulty. The factory we work with has very good quality control procedures in place anyway and CycleCharge works closely with them on quality and warranty claims. They have agreed to provide us with a special 3 year warranty arrangement due to us regularly ordering in bulk.

 

[morphix]

The bottle battery:

Here are some other pictures of the batteries and kits.

24v10Ah and 36v10Ah budget Lithium-Ion batteries with chargers, custom-made for CycleCharge.

2kg hub Motor Kit, rear drive with controller and LCD console.

Close up of LCD fitted to handlebar

LCD shown with backlight

Close up of the 250w motor spoked in the wheel. It has an internal speed sensor and weighs just 2kg. The 200w version is only 1.2kg.

Slim-line chargers, 7hr and 3hr express charger, side by side for 24v10Ah and 36v10Ah.

In-line brake sensor

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Nice stuff. Well done Morphix.

 

[jonathan75]

Thanks from me too. I was just wondering are the rectangular batteries rear-mounted, or more a rectangular bottle-variety, and what brand of cells they contain; and what kind of amperages and prices for 36v controllers and LCDs might you be able to arrange, please, including external and in-battery controllers? Do the batteries contain BMS, and what sort of discharges are they capable of? What would be the price for a charger if ordered with a battery? Is there a model type or a torque rating for the motor? When do you expect the first batch to arrive? And were I to not place an order now, how soon might it be before another might arrive, please, i.e. how regularly might you be placing such orders? Sorry for all the questions! Thanks

 

[Cyclezee]

Hi Morphix,

Just sent you a message

BTW, the rectangular shrink wrap battery packs appear to be 12V.

 

[morphix]

Nice stuff. Well done Morphix.

Thanks!

 

[morphix]

Hi Morphix,

Just sent you a message

BTW, the rectangular shrink wrap battery packs appear to be 12V.

They're 24v and 36v. They were mislabelled intentionally by the Chinese in an attempt to pass them off as wheel-chair batteries which get preferential tax treatment I think (I didn't ask the Chinese to do it, it was their own initiative) it didn't work however, I get taxed on them, so clearly HMRC have wised up to it!

These batteries shown are from the first batch I ordered quite a while ago. The next batch will have CycleCharge branded labels on, and hopefully we'll have some proper (light-weight plastic) housings shortly.

If anyone knows of any sources of suitable housings feel free to suggest, the Chinese battery factory has had trouble sourcing one and it's hard to explain to them what I mean. They sent me housings which are basically boxes for lead-acid style batteries/wheelchairs! I was thinking of something more like a laptop-style battery housing, or something looking like the charger housing, with two wires coming out each end.

 

[morphix]

Thanks from me too. I was just wondering are the rectangular batteries rear-mounted, or more a rectangular bottle-variety, and what brand of cells they contain; and what kind of amperages and prices for 36v controllers and LCDs might you be able to arrange, please, including external and in-battery controllers? Do the batteries contain BMS, and what sort of discharges are they capable of? What would be the price for a charger if ordered with a battery? Is there a model type or a torque rating for the motor? When do you expect the first batch to arrive? And were I to not place an order now, how soon might it be before another might arrive, please, i.e. how regularly might you be placing such orders? Sorry for all the questions! Thanks

No worries, I welcome the questions!

The rectangle batteries are what you might call a budget battery, they're supposed to contain Samsung 2600 cells, but I'm skeptical and we haven't had cause to take any apart yet to examine them to verify this. These are made from a factory in China that specialises in battery manufacturing and is a separate factory to the one which makes the motors and the bottle batteries with optional integrated controller.

That said, I have several of the budget batteries I use myself still going strong in their 2nd year and have supplied several to others. At this price, even if you replaced them annually it's still good value and we now have a small group of volunteers willing and able to service/repair these batteries for us. The Chinese are happy to send us replacement cells/BMS, anything we need to service them.

They're do contain a good BMS and the factory has guaranteed them for 3 years, but as with anything in China, you have to take that with a pinch of salt, so CycleCharge is offering a 2 year guarantee as stated (for now at least). They should be good for at least 500 discharge and charge cycles. Charging cycle is 7 hrs on the standard charger, 3 hrs on the express charger. The charger (which I had specially requested to be laptop-sized for portability) is included free with the battery and you can choose standard, or express. I expect the express will put more stress on the battery and shorten its life, so I recommend users have a standard charger and keep the express one for occasional use. You can buy an express charger for £10 or have one free instead of the standard 7hr one if you prefer.

These rectangle batteries are designed to be mounted in panniers or rack bags/handlebar bags/seatpost bags etc. They don't have any protective housings on them, so anyone buying them may want to make a housing for protection unless you want to keep weight down low. They're very light at 1.45kg for 24v10Ah and 1.95kg for 36v10Ah. We can have batteries made to any capacity as one-offs (prices on request) and 48v certainly isn't a problem either.

Going forwards into next year.. the plan is to use CycleCharge grant money and the talent from our volunteers to develop our own unique range of batteries which are designed to be easily serviceable by end users without soldering, using branded cells that just swap out and a more intelligent BMS with LCD (or perhaps an Android app/BT approach) showing cell status etc.

The only battery which has an integrated controller at present, is the £100 bottle battery I mentioned (36v9Ah) and that controller requires you use the motors/kits from the same factory (it won't work with any motor). They have a wide range of LCD's besides the standard model I posted.

CycleCharge Ltd has secured exclusive distribution agreements with both the battery factory and the motors/kits factory, but this agreement depends on us being able to build up order volume next year, and that ultimately means ordering in bulk by sea. I've been going slowly and testing the quality and reliability/safety of these batteries before we make that leap, but that's the plan, if we can't develop our own batteries by then.

As to order frequency, it could be monthly by Air if enough people order, but more frequent than that is unlikely due to the high courier cost and increasing restrictions on sending batteries by air. If ordering by sea it's a lot cheaper, but delivery takes much longer (6 weeks), so once every 2-3 months at most I would think.

Things really depend on how well the new website and business model is received next year for CycleCharge's ability to help tackle the CO2 problem and promote e-bikes as a CO2 solution. I'm going to be doing a lot of begging to the government, the EU, and a lot of NGO's and private environmental orgs that give grant funding to CO2-reducing technology. Then there's the seeder sites to try or possibly even a public floating of the company to raise money. If CycleCharge as a company is able to raise enough capital, then we'd be able to build up and hold large stocks in the UK (by sea a few times a year) which would be ideal scenario, as then costs would be very low (and import taxes) and we'd be able to offer a very fast order turnaround from stock.

For the time being, I'm just assessing demand and placing smallish orders by FedEx. The next one will be due for delivery in January (hopefully 1st or 2nd week). The Chinese are being very supportive of CycleCharge and patient as really I hoped things would be much further along by now and the new site completed, but due to illness and some other problems, it's gone much slower. We do have a new site (and a 'green' data centre with renewable energies hosting it using 1/8th of the electricity of a normal datacentre) but it's a case of putting all the content on it and finishing the business plan.

As to your question about the motors and torque.. I can't really answer that one but I can get you more information from the factory. What I can say is, they're *really* good quality motors with a bewildering array of LCD's and controllers to go with them to suit all kinds of builds and users, far better than BMS Battery's, and run very quiet even at top speed and when climbing steep hills. The performance and build quality is really good (the factory builds them by hand and every one is thoroughly tested), I've put them against some incredibly steep hills (both 24v and 36v are on eMezzo's I converted). The super-lightweight motor is amazing for 1.2kg, probably one of the lightest motors available on the market and at 200W is able to perform remarkably well for its size and weight..although not an ideal hill climber motor, if you want a super-compact lightweight build and just minimal assistance, perhaps for Brompton conversion, this is the motor for it.

Once I get my separate commercial company site going (which will offer eMezzo's and DIY kits and parts), I will put all the technical info and diagrams up there. Then I will rejoin this forum with a business user separate account to my CycleCharge one. I'm pushing my luck a bit promoting this stuff I think here! I don't want to upset the admins or any business members. But like I said, this is all non-profit here for now..if you want to order kits/bits alongside batteries via CycleCharge at cost price, you're welcome to.

 

[jonathan75]

Thanks, appreciated

 

[trex]

I can't see how the 'not for profit' model work in the real economy.
Profit drives up quality of service. Without profit, you cannot guarantee a minimum level of service to your customers. For example, what if you decide to move on to another job? If the business model is not sufficiently profitable, then it would be impossible to find another management team to take it over.
Without profit, the company has no way of growing. Its competency will stagnate and the customers be deprived of future products and support.

 

[mfj197]

Thanks, appreciated

Jonathan75, where did your well-considered post from 2am go? You had obviously put some thought into it and raised some good questions.

Michael

 

[patpatbut]

Thanks. It helps a lot for the people who want to enter the ebike world with little budget

Just wondering can you help to supply bike parts? I am after 36h brompton rim

 

[Kinninvie]

I can't see how the 'not for profit' model work in the real economy.
Profit drives up quality of service. Without profit, you cannot guarantee a minimum level of service to your customers. For example, what if you decide to move on to another job? If the business model is not sufficiently profitable, then it would be impossible to find another management team to take it over.
Without profit, the company has no way of growing. Its competency will stagnate and the customers be deprived of future products and support.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A nonprofit organization (NPO) is an organization that uses surplus revenues to achieve its goals rather than distributing them as profit or dividends.[1][2]

Although nonprofit organizations are permitted to generate surplus revenues, they must be retained by the organization for its self-preservation, expansion, or plans.[3]NPOs have controlling members or a board of directors. Many have paid staff including management, whereas others employ unpaid volunteers and even executives who work with or without compensation (occasionally nominal).[4] Where there is a token fee, in general, it is used to meet legal requirements for establishing a contract between the executive and the organization.

Designation as a nonprofit does not mean that the organization does not intend to make a profit, but rather that the organization has no owners and that the funds realized in the operation of the organization will not be used to benefit any owners. The extent to which an NPO can generate surplus revenues may be constrained or use of surplus revenues may be restricted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Everybody makes a nice little earner out of them. The suppliers can get better prices. The customers can get better prices, and the employees can get a better salary. Basically, everybody shares the profits. Bear in mind that many normal businesses are also non-profit. How do you think Google and others avoid paying tax in the UK?

 

[jonathan75]

Jonathan75, where did your well-considered post from 2am go? You had obviously put some thought into it and raised some good questions.

Michael

Ok will put it back up shortly

 

[trex]

@ Kinninvie:

Morphix's model relies on volunteers to keep cost down.
I don't think it's an economically feasible strategy because as soon as the organisation sells something to a non-member, it needs to have an approriate infrastructure to provide a level of service commensurate with other commercial organisations. Can you seriously rely on volunteers to provide free labour on a long term?

@ d8veh
Google uk main income stream is Adwords, domiciliated in Luxembourg - whose tax rate can be negociated directly. I know of no other EU country offering this special tax regime.
A good company must have good service. It's a do or die for companies relying on the internet for its marketing. My contention is, good service is like good marketing, it cannot be done on the cheap.

 

[selrahc1992]

They're 24v and 36v. They were mislabelled intentionally by the Chinese in an attempt to pass them off as wheel-chair batteries which get preferential tax treatment I think (I didn't ask the Chinese to do it, it was their own initiative) it didn't work however, I get taxed on them, so clearly HMRC have wised up to it!

These batteries shown are from the first batch I ordered quite a while ago. The next batch will have CycleCharge branded labels on, and hopefully we'll have some proper (light-weight plastic) housings shortly.

If anyone knows of any sources of suitable housings feel free to suggest, the Chinese battery factory has had trouble sourcing one and it's hard to explain to them what I mean. They sent me housings which are basically boxes for lead-acid style batteries/wheelchairs! I was thinking of something more like a laptop-style battery housing, or something looking like the charger housing, with two wires coming out each end.

apologies for another technical question - I gather from BMSbattery and the previous conversation Morphix that those bottle batteries with built in controllers only work with hub motors that have built in speed sensors. Does anyone know whether that means they really wont work with a BPM2? I'm thinking of a DIY build but want to have something that would be very tidy and easy to start with but could have some head room for increasing power later. As a separate issue - if you supplied a 48V battery in a wrapping what form factor would it be - bottle battery, square or one of those rear rack types? many thanks

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Non-profit doesn't mean that you can't sell stuff for more than you paid for it.

You can still get a margin from buying and selling stuff without making a profit, i.e. you sell the stuff for more than you pay for it, then deduct the business costs, which include salaries for employees, so they don't have to be volunteers, although volunteers always help to keep the costs down.

Many registered charities have chief executives on six figure salaries as well as lots of volunteers at the bottom level.

 

[selrahc1992]

@ Kinninvie:

Morphix's model relies on volunteers to keep cost down.
I don't think it's an economically feasible strategy because as soon as the organisation sells something to a non-member, it needs to have an approriate infrastructure to provide a level of service commensurate with other commercial organisations. Can you seriously rely on volunteers to provide free labour on a long term?

@ d8veh
Google uk main income stream is Adwords, domiciliated in Luxembourg - whose tax rate can be negociated directly. I know of no other EU country offering this special tax regime.
A good company must have good service. It's a do or die for companies relying on the internet for its marketing. My contention is, good service is like good marketing, it cannot be done on the cheap.

having worked for quite a few (flourishing, long standing) NGO's I'd say that one answer is if it works in the real world, it works.

 

[jonathan75]

Restored from last night. I apologise in advance for any patronising tone:


Thanks so much for the reply Morphix, that's brilliant.


I was really excited when I read your post first of all, thinking 'yay, cheap batteries for me'. But have to admit, if I were a UK retailer of batteries or kits reading this, I'd be having kittens. Your grant funding means you don't have to charge prices which give you a margin which puts food on your table. That could damage existing suppliers who have no way of competing.


If a supplier has capital tied up in stock that's more difficult or impossible to shift because of that, that could mean cashflow problems and writedowns and losses and even failure in the case of some who are just squeezing by. If that were just a consequence of market-led competition I'd say fine, but it's not.


I think ebikes are expensive* in the UK, and imagine that does limit takeup, but wonder if there's a way for you to run your grant-funded activity in such a way that supports the diversity and even the increase of existing retailers, whose health is (alongside the competitive prices which you are aiming at) also important for the UK ebike market and ebike takeup.


You sound to me pretty skilled in dealing with wholesalers - I bet your wholesale prices are a heck of a lot lower than what UK retailers are getting. I bet their margins are pretty thin on batteries and kits. If that's true you could actually help them increase their margins and build sustainable price-competition were you to consider just supplying them alone. I see no ethical or market problems with that at all, on the contrary. It could be the best way to leverage the grant funding for maximum impact. Although I don't know how EU state aid rules work in relation to this.


If you were to supply the public directly, through a separate business unit, I think it ought to be at prices which have been calculated as though there were no subsidy involved at all (leaving out no hypothetical cost), otherwise the grant could have the function of actually undermining the industry it's trying to stimulate.


I hope I don't sound offensive in saying this but feel I have to state my thoughts frankly.



*N.B. I believe it is a fundamental teaching in business economics that immature industries (or those at the point of the business cycle with limited supply and greater demand) actually require high prices in order to attract market entrants, with the promise of their being able to obtain real profits. If prices are reduced suddenly without a corresponding massive increase in demand and sales across EACH of the market participants' businesses (which will only very unusually occur), then in theory you get a wave of bankruptcies, withdrawals from the market on the business side, and limited new business entrants because there are no notable profits to be made (meanwhile the dedicated specialists have left). Businesses leave until there is a situation of undersupply, where a few businesses alone can set prices because there is slightly more demand than supply, and no great competition. That's how a grant subsidy for supply of a good, can actually increase the price of that good in the long run. So I think in order to fulfil your goal of getting people on ebikes (i.e. helping lower prices while protecting markets) you're going to have to think more about how to do it in a way which doesn't damage those markets, but supports them. Hence my thought maybe you should think about two units, one which just sells to retailers, another which sells to the public but at prices which are calculated to match in every way those which ordinary non-subsidised businesses would have to pay.

Just a note of caution - I only read the one economics textbook. But I think I read it pretty well.


.............

Added points:


If this were a market for services then things would be different - services are often confined to a locality, but for goods you're just introducing market deflation: it's a small market, and every would-be purchaser who looks at your post may postpone a purchase at market price, in favour of your sales in which long run actual costs way exceed your long run market income (that's the requirement for any business to exist).

Re others' NGO examples:

I don't think the NGO examples others are making hold good because they're for services and not goods. Where they're for goods they either introduce vital goods and do them in conjunction with local businesses, i.e. supply them to retailers and don't retail them directly, or they're creating a new business with no prior product (e.g. clean water inventions) and will still find third party retailers; or they introduce for moral reasons subsidised vital goods e.g. food, which DO destroy local markets. The moral reason, i.e. avoiding starvation, has to be strong enough to justify destroying local and national markets (in the internet age). I think Co2 isn't the only good reason to promote ebike use, it's the pleasure in them and the opportunity to enjoy the countryside that they bring to people who aren't spring chickens, which seems to me a very strong moral good. But even together, co2 and pleasure are not the kind of moral emergency situation in which (as in the case of starvation) you're exchanging one set of catastrophic circumstances for another set of differently catastrophic circumstances. And even if it is catastrophic, then if you're justifying yourself morally, it's then morally obligatory on you to a) find the solution which does least harm in itself and doesn't do more harm than good, and b) find a solution which sustains itself in the long run using CONSERVATIVE methods, i.e. not proposing that we have a massive revolution in supply from the private to the state and voluntary sector.