Crank drive comparisons - Impulse .v. Bosch .v. Panasonic

[Artstu]

Many readers of these pages choose not to break laws and become criminals without morals, ethics or common decency and respect. You should be prosecuted!

Melissa

That's very funny, good joke you are joking I hope.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Many readers of these pages choose not to break laws and become criminals without morals, ethics or common decency and respect. You should be prosecuted!

Melissa

You're jumping to conclusions. I built it for the Bristol World Championships. I don't use it on the road.

I said it "could" climb that hill without pedalling.

I'm sure it would, however there has to be some trade off, if it's capable of good high speed and exceptionally steep climbs. My car will go from 0-70mph with a third gear start, it's not very efficient to do that though.

I'm not too sure what you're saying there. It's also very fast with a top speed of 31 mph. I built it for high speed climbing of steep hills, and it does it very efficiently because the motors spin in their sweet zone even on steep hills because it has enough power to maintain a high speed

I go back to my original point that it's not a question of the type of motor you have. You can design a system to do what you want.

 

[flecc]

Many readers of these pages choose not to break laws and become criminals without morals, ethics or common decency and respect. You should be prosecuted!

Melissa

Didn't you know the "e" in e-bikes stands for evil?
.

 

[Streethawk]

I'm not too sure what you're saying there. It's also very fast with a top speed of 31 mph. I built it for high speed climbing of steep hills, and it does it very efficiently because the motors spin in their sweet zone even on steep hills because it has enough power to maintain a high speed

I go back to my original point that it's not a question of the type of motor you have. You can design a system to do what you want.

My point is there's always a trade off, perhaps in your case it's power usage and/or range and/or weight and/or cost. For example your bike isn't using 12wh per mile

 

[borisd0]

Power- Speed- Excitement, where are e bikes going?

I hope no e bike exclusions zones appear. It will be difficult to judge what bike is legal and those that are not.
Many cycle ways are shared with other users.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

My point is there's always a trade off, perhaps in your case it's power usage and/or range and/or weight and/or cost. For example your bike isn't using 12wh per mile

Yes I already made that point in post #27 in this thread.

This thread is about a comparison of bikes that climb well, and whether the modern high-torque hub motors can climb as well as well as the Bosch, Panasonic and Kalkhoff crank-motors. It doesn't matter which one you use, if you go up hills fast, you'll use a lot of battery. That's obvious. You can't get something for nothing.

 

[Streethawk]

I've seen a guy in Manchester riding trails with an old GT STS (a £3k bike in the 90's!) fitted with a 1000w Golden motor, yet i followed him for a few miles and he never did over 12mph, whereas plenty of roadies were tearing down the trail over 20mph. The ability to go fast doesn't mean you have to go fast, i have no problem with that sort of bike, used with sensible restraint. There will always be hooligans, but generally those are the idiots on motocross bikes doing 40+ down trails. Yet to see a hooligan on an ebike.

 

[Kudoscycles]

It should be appreciated that these legal BPM hub drive bikes are still pedelecs,on the steepest hills they still require pedalling to assist the motor up the hill,however the ability of higher torque at lower speed allows you to select a matching gear that allows reasonable rapid progress up the hill without undue effort.
My point was that to achieve that in the past required use of an illegal bike,you can now achieve same with a legal bike.
If you want progress up a steep hill without pedalling I think it is still necessary to use an illegal bike,perhaps 500 watts plus.
KudosDave

 

[Mike45]

I have recently had the chance of reasonable test rides on Bosch and Panasonic drive bikes so I thought it might be helpful to offer a few personal observations about how these drive systems compare with the Impulse system I am most familiar with. I must stress these are personal opinions and other people could well ride the same bikes and come to different conclusions - it is always best to try out a variety of bikes for yourself, although this can often be difficult to arrange with limited availability of many premium brands. For reference, the bikes used for this comparison were step-thru models of a Swiss Flyer (Panasonic 25.2v system), Gepida (Bosch 2013 console / software) and Kalkhoff Agattu (Impulse 2013 software). The bikes all had similar specs (apart from the motor / battery) and had the same Nexus 8 hub gear. They are similarly priced at a little under £2000. All the bikes are available with larger capacity batteries at additional cost (Panasonic 403Wh, Bosch 400Wh and Impulse 612Wh)

The most striking thing, perhaps not that surprisingly (given the 25.2v battery - 302Wh) was the lack of power from the Panasonic motor. I would liken it to driving a minibus up a hill. It would climb steep hills slowly in a low gear but even gentle inclines seemed to require quite a bit of effort in higher gears. The 3 levels of assist seemed to only marginally change the feel of the assistance provided. With gentle pedalling, the torque sensor sometimes made for a jerky ride but overall it was generally quite smooth. On the plus side, this was the quietest of the 3 motors. It may be that the latest 36v system has more power but i'm told this is not noticeably the case by someone who has tried both.

The Bosch system (36v battery - 300Wh) was much more powerful but noticeably noisier that the other two. The four levels of assist gave clearly differentiated levels of assist. The assist was delivered smoothly across the range. The bike also felt better with the assist turned off although this might be nothing to do with the motors, just a comparison between the Gepida and the Swiss Flyer. Having said that, the bikes have the same gears and weigh about the same so they ought to be similar to ride unpowered. The Bosch console (the only bike with a display console of the three I tested) was well located, easy to read and informative.

The Impulse system (36v battery - 540Wh) on the Kalkhoff feels similar to the Bosch with plenty of power and clearly differentiated assist delivered through the 3 settings. Delivery is smooth and it's quieter than the Bosch, but not as quiet as the Panasonic. This year's Agattu models don't have a display console but they are available on other Kalkhoff models.

So, motor wise I would say there is not a lot to choose between the Bosch and the Impulse with the Panasonic being disappointing in comparison. Taking into account the battery capacity provided in the standard spec the Kalkhoff offers the best value package and all round solution for those requiring extended cycling range. If range is not important, then it would be a question of personal preference.

To get back to the comparison aspect of this post, is anybody able to shed more light upon the apparent lack of power of the Panasonic motor? Can anyone provide personal experience of the ability of the later Panasonic drive bikes with 36v batteries e.g. the KTM Amparo 8?

 

[1boris]

http://www.pedelec-biker.com/2015/12/bosch-brose-yamaha-im-direkten_23.html#more

 

[trex]

I like the Brose very much,

 

[tillson]

To get back to the comparison aspect of this post, is anybody able to shed more light upon the apparent lack of power of the Panasonic motor?

All that I can say is that the Panasonic motor does not lack power. I've owned one for 7 1/2 years covering tens of thousands of miles. I've also ridden an Impulse powered bike and would say the power is about the same, but the Impulse continues to deliver assistance at a higher pedalling cadence, which some may prefer. The big pluses for the Panasonic system are plenty of power, unrivalled reliability, battery life > 5 years and simplicity of maintenance.

I live in a hilly area and can say that the Panasonic would be suitable for use by a chain smoking asthmatic tortoise, such is its power output.

 

[Mike45]

http://www.pedelec-biker.com/2015/12/bosch-brose-yamaha-im-direkten_23.html#more

Thanks for that. Pity it didn't include the Panasonic motor/

 

[Mike45]

All that I can say is that the Panasonic motor does not lack power. I've owned one for 7 1/2 years covering tens of thousands of miles. I've also ridden an Impulse powered bike and would say the power is about the same, but the Impulse continues to deliver assistance at a higher pedalling cadence, which some may prefer. The big pluses for the Panasonic system are plenty of power, unrivalled reliability, battery life > 5 years and simplicity of maintenance.

I live in a hilly area and can say that the Panasonic would be suitable for use by a chain smoking asthmatic tortoise, such is its power output.

Presumably, if you bike is 7 1/2 years old it has the lower voltage battery/motor?

 

[tillson]

Presumably, if you bike is 7 1/2 years old it has the lower voltage battery/motor?

Yes the 26 volt system.

 

[Jonah]

Amongst my many bikes I have got a Raleigh Leeds with the 26v Panasonic motor and it is pleasure to ride (along the relative flat). There seems to be so many variables in how various motors are set up and perform - even bikes with the same motor do not always perform the same. Having said this, when you need power (up big hills) the Impulse 2 motor generally provides considerably more assist than the the 26v Panasonic (as would be expected). I do not have a bike with the newer 36v Panasonic motor so am unable to comment on these. The Impulse 2 also provides more power than the Bosch motors I have on my KTMs (both Active and Performance Line) which are power limited on the hub geared bikes I have.
The Impulse motor power delivery can be configured using a service unit and I expect the same is true for other brands. This also makes comparisons difficult since you usually won't be aware of how the motor has been configured.