Converting existing bike vs buying new?

[nemesis]

It costs pennies to recharge an electric bike and it costs pounds to refuel a moped.

 

[Trevormonty]

Bike drivechains and wheels are designed to handle 200w continously with peaks of 500W.

A 2kw motor will eat chains, expect <1000km from cheap 8-9spd chain and less from more expensive 10-11spd. My 250w eMTB gets about 700-1000kms from 11spd chain, lot offroad work but lot less power.

With this amount of power a single speed might be way to go assume the hub, spokes and wheel can handle power.

 

[tillson]

It costs pennies to recharge an electric bike and it costs pounds to refuel a moped.

True, but it costs hundreds to buy a battery which has a limited life.

Anyway, the slight cost differential aside, the issue of putting innocent people at risk by riding something similar to what is being proposed remains.

 

[tommie]

So you didn't have to get new tyres or a new gear system to support the added weight and speed capability? Was this a pretty high end bike before the conversion or just an ordinary mountain bike?

Matt, the donor bike was a Whyte hybrid item, decent quality (British made btw), after conversion weighed in at 19.5kgs (without battery) fitted with a KMC chain and Schwalbe tyres which are a common item on most ebikes.
Point is if you`re talking about speeds of 30+ on a daily basis DO NOT get an ebike. it`s an accident waiting to happen, you have at most 1 inch of rubber in contact with the road trying to haul you to a stop if someone walks out in front of you, as suggested previously get something that can cope with those speeds.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

It costs pennies to recharge an electric bike and it costs pounds to refuel a moped.

True, but overall cost per mile is about the same when you factor in battery costs

 

[nemesis]

True, but overall cost per mile is about the same when you factor in battery costs

A quality battery at £600 will last two to three years with daily use,refueling a moped at say £10 a week works out more expensive plus insurance and tax.

 

[tillson]

A quality battery at £600 will last two to three years with daily use,refueling a moped at say £10 a week works out more expensive plus insurance and tax.

But it will be necessary to register & insure the ebike under discussion won’t it?

Registering the ebike will involve obtaining type approval. That in itself will result in an additional cost for the fitting of lights, indicators, a number plate, upgraded brakes & tyres, plus the test itself. By the time you add all of this up, plus the time and angst of actually getting it done, you may as well go the small capacity motor scooter route. It could well work out cheaper.

After say three years, the motor scooter will have a better resale value too due to its appeal to a wider audience of potential buyers.

As I said before, it’s a no-brainier to go for a motor scooter if you want a 30 mph+ two wheeled vehicle.

 

[Nealh]

A quality battery at £600 will last two to three years with daily use,refueling a moped at say £10 a week works out more expensive plus insurance and tax.

One at half that price or even a bit less will last 2 - 3 yrs with good branded cells.

 

[nemesis]

But it will be necessary to register & insure the ebike under discussion won’t it?

Registering the ebike will involve obtaining type approval. That in itself will result in an additional cost for the fitting of lights, indicators, a number plate, upgraded brakes & tyres, plus the test itself. By the time you add all of this up, plus the time and angst of actually getting it done, you may as well go the small capacity motor scooter route. It could well work out cheaper.

After say three years, the motor scooter will have a better resale value too due to its appeal to a wider audience of potential buyers.

As I said before, it’s a no-brainier to go for a motor scooter if you want a 30 mph+ two wheeled vehicle.

How many S class are registered and insured in the UK,you could probably count them on the fingers of one hand.

 

[tillson]

How many S class are registered and insured in the UK,you could probably count them on the fingers of one hand.

So are you suggesting that it’s cheaper to run the 30 mph ebike because you wouldn’t take out insurance, type approval & registration? I’m not going to make a moral judgement on that, but if you are happy to go that route, there would be no difference in applying the same mindset to the motor scooter. So, why not get the motor scooter and ride it without tax, MoT & insurance. Take it for a blast along canal tow paths and cycle ways too. You could even put false number plates on it to reduce the risk of detection. The level of offending which I have just described is exactly the same as what you are proposing for the ebike under discussion. No more, no less. So it’s only fair to apply the same logic to the case for the motor scooter.

Therefore, if you are happy to ride without the legal requirements of insurance & type approval and avoid the associated costs, the motor scooter still makes more financial sense. It’s still a no-brainier.

It’s only if you look at the cost of a motor scooter when following the letter of the law, but are happy to sweep the law aside for the ebike, does the ebike make sense.

 

[nemesis]

So are you suggesting that it’s cheaper to run the 30 mph ebike because you wouldn’t take out insurance, type approval & registration? I’m not going to make a moral judgement on that, but if you are happy to go that route, there would be no difference in applying the same mindset to the motor scooter. So, why not get the motor scooter and ride it without tax, MoT & insurance. Take it for a blast along canal tow paths and cycle ways too. You could even put false number plates on it to reduce the risk of detection. The level of offending which I have just described is exactly the same as what you are proposing for the ebike under discussion. No more, no less. So it’s only fair to apply the same logic to the case for the motor scooter.

Therefore, if you are happy to ride without the legal requirements of insurance & type approval and avoid the associated costs, the motor scooter still makes more financial sense. It’s still a no-brainier.

It’s only if you look at the cost of a motor scooter when following the letter of the law, but are happy to sweep the law aside for the ebike, does the ebike make sense.

I am not saying that riding a S class e-bike without registration and insurance is correct but that is the way most people who own them roll in this country.

 

[danielrlee]

One at half that price or even a bit less will last 2 - 3 yrs with good branded cells.

Possibly not if he wants a decent range at those sort of speeds.

 

[danielrlee]

All legal arguments aside, building an ebike as a moped alternative can be done, but IMO, is not a good idea for a first build. Once you get over 30mph, you need to think more 'motorcycle safety' than 'bike safety'. One wrong move and you can end up DEAD. Hell, you can even end up dead in your sleep if you screw up something as important as battery safety.

Moving on though...

Don't listen to those telling you that bike components can't sustain this sort of speed. It's just an engineering challenge after all. A half decent hardtail will be good for 30mph and a solid downhill frame will be good for 45+mph.

If you decide to do this, maybe lower your aim a little. An 80A, 48V DD hub build will give extremely snappy acceleration with a top speed of 30-35mph - perfect moped territory. Any faster and it starts to get too risky, for me anyway.

 

[tillson]

I am not saying that riding a S class e-bike without registration and insurance is correct but that is the way most people who own them roll in this country.

That’s correct, there are quite a few who are happy to ride S pedelecs without complying with any of the legal requirements. As I’ve said, I’m not going to pass any judgement on that.

Having said the above, what is it that puts these people off using a motor scooter without tax, MoT or insurance? After the Charlie Alliston incident, the cyclist who hit and killed a female pedestrian, why would anyone take the risk of building a push bike with a motor capable of propelling it to 30 mph? The major agrevating factor in the Alliston case was the fact that the bike was not road legal, he went to prison, imagine if it had a high power motor fitted as well. The motor would have immediately moved the offence into the Death by Dangerous driving category. Crown court, big sentence, 10 years of the shower block, 10 years of a 22 stone cell mate called Susan who wants to play Mummy & Daddy after lights out. No thanks.

Stupidly, if you hit an killed a pedestrian on a motor scooter without tax & insurance, the sentence is very likely to be much less than if it had been on an illegal ebike. So to me, the motor scooter still makes sense on every level.

Legal Ebikes are extremely capable, going the S route makes no sense for so many reasons.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

One at half that price or even a bit less will last 2 - 3 yrs with good branded cells.

He wants a 2kw motor and 30+ mph. £600 would be a cheap battery, and I doubt that it would last much longer than a year unless he gets a very heavy LiFePO4 one.

 

[Matt Cooper]

Tillson, and others, I've had a further think about it and I think you're completely right on the benefits of getting a moped over an ebike. When I thought about it, what I actually wanted was something that would give me freedom, as in the freedom of being able to make trips of any length without having to worry about batteries.

Going off road was never a huge priority for me, and you add to that how cheap mopeds are compared to an ebike that can only just do 40mph, and the safety benefits etc. Can't put a price on your life! I know people will say oh insurance registration tax I've looked into all these things and a moped still seems much better value for me and will allow me the freedom to explore that I've never had before, having never owned a motor vehicle.

Thanks for helping me decide

 

[nemesis]

We desperately need a change in the law so that S class bikes can be easily registered and then insured.

 

[tommie]

You`re probably right Matt but there`s one downside to this, it`s that you`ll be getting zero exercise, which is what all ebikers have, they can get as much or as little that suits them.
If you`ve never owned a motor vehicle i`d advise you to go to your nearest ebike store and let them give you a trial. I`ll guarantee you`ll get a surprise!
Check it out before you make a final decision.