Converting Carrera Subway 2

Bonzo Banana

Esteemed Pedelecer
Sep 29, 2019
805
464
You can get 9 speed freewheels like this one;


I never think they are a as good as Shimano 7 speed freewheels which seem stronger and more accurately threaded however with a ebike the drivetrain does get an easier life. So while a 9 speed freewheel might be short life on a conventional bike it can give good service on a hub motor based ebike.
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
6,823
3,154
Telford
You can get 9 speed freewheels like this one;


I never think they are a as good as Shimano 7 speed freewheels which seem stronger and more accurately threaded however with a ebike the drivetrain does get an easier life. So while a 9 speed freewheel might be short life on a conventional bike it can give good service on a hub motor based ebike.
8 speed and 9 speed freewheels are nearly always too wide. If you know what you're doing, they can be fitted but it makes the installation much more complicated, so they're best avoided. I always recommend 7 speeds or less for freewheel motors. If you want 8, 9 or more, you should get a cassette motor.

The problem with the width is the amount of off-set you need to build into the wheel to get the rim central, then you end up with spokes that are too tight on one side and too loose on the other. There are ways round that, but it involves frame stretching and disc spacers that most people wouldn't want to do.
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,376
16,875
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
you need 11T or 12T sprocket on 8/9/10-speed freewheels for a more relaxed cruising at 15mph. 7-speed freewheel has 13T on the smallest rear sprocket.
The error the OP made was to buy a motor with thread for a freewheel instead of a freehub.
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
6,823
3,154
Telford
you need 11T or 12T sprocket on 8/9/10-speed freewheels for a more relaxed cruising at 15mph. 7-speed freewheel has 13T on the smallest rear sprocket.
The error the OP made was to buy a motor with thread for a freewheel instead of a freehub.
Apart from DNP ones!
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,376
16,875
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
I keep Sunrace 8-speed 11T-28T freewheels. The OP had originally 9-speed cassette, so either he buys a 7-speed shifter and put up with 13T sprocket or 9-speed freewheel and a freewheel tool with thin wall. BTW, what do you think of Mechaniker's torque sensor that he builds into the freehub?
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
6,823
3,154
Telford
I keep Sunrace 8-speed 11T-28T freewheels. The OP had originally 9-speed cassette, so either he buys a 7-speed shifter and put up with 13T sprocket or 9-speed freewheel and a freewheel tool with thin wall. BTW, what do you think of Mechaniker's torque sensor that he builds into the freehub?
I've got a feeling that it's too expensive and complicated for what I'd want. As you know, I like the KT pedal assist control system a lot, and you can have a throttle with it that works independently to 4 mph, then works after that as long as the pedals are turning. The response time is very quick, so a torque sensor won't give a big advantage on that, if any at all. The one thing I wouldn't want is any system that uses torque multiplying algorithms, where you pedal harder to get more power. That seems daft to me. I can understand using a torque sensor as a switch, but in that case all you need is an idler wheel on the chain with a spring to hold it down a bit.

These comments are in relation to using an ebike on the road for touring, commuting, shopping and things like that. For off-road and any sort of difficult terain, a torque multiplying system would be better, but then a hub-motor might not be the best motor either. Mechaniker didn't mention whether his system is a torque multiplyer or fixed power levels.

What about your kit? Does it use torque multiplication or does it give a fixed power or speed for each pedal assist level?
 

Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
20,376
16,875
Southend on Sea
wooshbikes.co.uk
I can understand using a torque sensor as a switch, but in that case all you need is an idler wheel on the chain with a spring to hold it down a bit.
it's the PAS that acts as a switch in all the usual torque sensors. The TS signal is inhibited by the PAS while the torque signal will control the current according to the selected riding mode. I think you and Mechaniker have more in common than your apparent tribes - cadence and torque. Both of you like granular control how your bikes deliver. He has the tool to configure the Lishui controller. I like his invention which makes conversion simpler and easier to service.
 
Last edited:

Ianb84

Pedelecer
May 12, 2018
31
6
40
Edinburgh
There's no exact way to fit all the washers and spacers. Even if there were an instruction, it wouldn't work because every bike is different. Here's how I fit a motor:

First, file the drop-outs first to get the motor into the drop-outs. I normally file the drop-outs about 2.5mm deeper to re-centralise the axle otherwise the tab washer doesn't engage with the slot and your brake pads might not line up with the friction area of the disc, though every bike is different, so I have to make a judgement on each one.

Next job is to get the disc to line up with the caliper, so I put the caliper in the middle of its sideways adjustment slots and put arrange any washers or spacers to position the disc so that it lines up with the gap between the pads.

Then I move to the other side and arrange any spacers and washers so that the cassette is just far enough from the drop-out to stop the chain touching the frame. That adjustment is vital to prevent the rim being off-centre. The clearance needs to be as small as possible.

Finally, check how central the rim is in line with the frame, then dish the wheel, if necessary, to make it central.

When arranging the washers and spacers, it helps to have a box of old 12mm washers and spacers of different sizes and thicknesses. The tab washers can go on either the inside or outside of the drop-out to suit, and you often need a non-standard 20mm O/D washer on the cassette side to go into the cassette without rubbing, though the Bafang type anti-rotation washers can be used for that when placed on the inside of the drop-out as long as it let's the chain close to the frame. It depends where the axle nut is inside the cassette. Some are nearly flush, others are deeper inside.
Hi there, does filing the dropouts ever affect the disc brake? Does it throw it off or is there usually still enough play in it to work without more adjustment? I’m looking to get the axle probably 2-3mm deeper into the dropouts (rear)
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
6,823
3,154
Telford
Hi there, does filing the dropouts ever affect the disc brake? Does it throw it off or is there usually still enough play in it to work without more adjustment? I’m looking to get the axle probably 2-3mm deeper into the dropouts (rear)
Good question. It's the opposite. A motor axle is 12mm diameter with 10mm flats. The original axle would be 9mm (Q/R) or 10mm (cheapo bolt on). The increase in diameter not only pushes the centr down a bit, but it also stops the axle going fully home. the end result is that the centre of the axle moves down about 2mm, which can affect the brake alignment. As well as filing drop-outs wider to get the axle in, you should file them deeper too to re-centralise the axle.
 

Sturmey

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2018
642
353
68
Ireland
Hi there, does filing the dropouts ever affect the disc brake? Does it throw it off or is there usually still enough play in it to work without more adjustment? I’m looking to get the axle probably 2-3mm deeper into the dropouts (rear)
I had that problem when converting a Carrera Vengence . The brake pads were not fully in contact with the disk afterwards and a step was forming on them.
I solved the problem by adding extra washers as shown below alongside the thick concave/convex washer pair. If for some reason you have to move the calipers inwards, it usually works to replace the original concave/convex washers with thinner washers.as shims (although you loose some of the tilt adjustment the original concave/convex arrangement provides)
59936
 
Last edited:

Ianb84

Pedelecer
May 12, 2018
31
6
40
Edinburgh
Good question. It's the opposite. A motor axle is 12mm diameter with 10mm flats. The original axle would be 9mm (Q/R) or 10mm (cheapo bolt on). The increase in diameter not only pushes the centr down a bit, but it also stops the axle going fully home. the end result is that the centre of the axle moves down about 2mm, which can affect the brake alignment. As well as filing drop-outs wider to get the axle in, you should file them deeper too to re-centralise the axle.
I never thought of that , excellent advice ! I just need a few mm deeper not wider (it’s a trek not a carrera subway, I just searched about filing and found this thread) .
cheers again
 

saneagle

Esteemed Pedelecer
Oct 10, 2010
6,823
3,154
Telford
I never thought of that , excellent advice ! I just need a few mm deeper not wider (it’s a trek not a carrera subway, I just searched about filing and found this thread) .
cheers again
The only thing you have to watch out for is that you have enough meat on the derailleur hanger. Some are already a bit close at the top, but most are OK.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ianb84