Convert Scott E Sub Sport 2015 from cassette & Rear Derailleur to kolfcoff SPEEDHUB 500/14

[Mac_user82]

hi

i have bought a Scott E Sub sport 2015 model in january really enjoying the bike i was just wondering would it be possible to change it from a rear cassette & Rear Derailleur and put a kolfcoff speed on it instead of using a cassette & rear Derailleur

i was thinking it would be less maintaince because i do a lot of miles i am have done nearly 2000 miles in about four months and i believe that the speed up are really good and don't really require much work to be done with them


any information and i would be grateful for it

kind


paul

 

[RobF]

I take it you mean a Rohloff Speed hub.

The answer to your question is yes, but no not really.

The conversion would almost certainly need the rear drop outs to be remade.

It's a job for a skilled frame builder.

I've seen it done the other way around, a gear hub frame converted to a derailer.

Even if you could get the welding done, you would need the Rohloff hub built into a new wheel.

Even then, chain alignment might be tricky.

Then you have to run the twin cables and fit the Rohloff twist grip shifter in place of your rapid fire.

That might be less of a problem, but it's a nightmare job overall, so really a non-starter.

 

[anotherkiwi]

There is a chain tensionner for mounting Rohloff hubs in vertical dropouts. It replaces the derailleur and also helps improve the chainline.

http://www.rohloff.de/en/technology/workshop/dropout_styles/

 

[Rohloffboy]

I have not yet got around to buying an Ebike, but have self built two Rohloff pedal bikes OEM type, first one back in 2004 when the Rohloff SpeedHub was only £450.

Although the Rohloff SpeedHub is a superb piece of kit, I would argue that the Nuvinci 360 Hub is better suited to an Ebike as a retro fit.

Yes the Rohloff can work with any frame, but the Nuvinci is half the price, it may not be as efficient as the Rohloff, but on an Ebike does that really matter.

My first Ebike will be a city type bike, using the Bosch Crank Drive and hopefully the Nuvinci 360 Hub, not sure what to buy yet, all work in progress.

 

[RobF]

I've tried a couple of NuVinci ebikes and could not get on with either of them.

The ride seemed dull and uninvolving, lacking any spark.

You may like it, but I would suggest you try one before you buy.

The NuVinci seemed to me to soak up a fair bit of power.

That could matter, even on an ebike.

Bosch motors are no balls of fire, so you may not have enough power in hand to cancel the resistance.

A Performance or CX motor might do it, but nothing is for nothing, so I suspect a NuVinci/Bosch bike would slurp the battery, reducing range.

 

[Rohloffboy]

Thanks RobF, I take your comments on board as I am new to all this Ebike stuff, I have been looking at the Ghost Andasol 5 which ticks most of my box's especially at £1500 from MHWBike inc delivery to UK from Germany!

But, and it could be a big but, the Bosch 250watt motor is 48nm, whilst on the Ghost Teru 4 the Bosch 250watt motor is 60nm.

I guess the extra 12nm will help on the hills, but what is the reason for having the two motor types, I can only think that the lesser nm model will give more range, but at the cost of not talking hills as well as the 60nm unit.

Problem with the Ghost Teru 4 is that it is Derailiure, although I could soon change that to Nuvinci or maybe Rohloff hub, I don't mind doing that.

 

[RobF]

For UK purposes, there are now three Bosch motors, Active, Performance and CX.

I have two Actives, and have tried a Performance.

It has noticeably more torque, so would get up a steeper hill or a less steep hill a bit faster - all depending on rider input as is the case with all Bosch motors.

The CX is said to have a bit more grunt again.

I doubt most users would need that.

The Ghost bike from MHW has the Performance motor.

To complicate matters further, Bosch limit the maximum assistance when the motor is fitted to a hub gear.

I have an Alfine 11 hub Bosch bike and a 10 speed derailleur Bosch bike.

Max grunt from the motor is noticeably more on the 10 speed.

You can see the differences if you look at the tables in the following link.

Bosch call derailleur gears 'chain', just to make it even less easy to grasp.

Clearly, the motors for hub gears are detuned because the hub gears are deemed to be less sturdy than a derailleur.

This might be relevant to you if you buy a derailleur bike and convert it to hub gear.

Your Rohloff is famously bomb proof, and could probably take the torque.

The NuVinci is also said to be very strong.

I'm not so sure about the Shimano gear hubs, particularly the 11 speed Alfine.

Mine failed outside of warranty, but was replaced free of charge.

It seems to me the eight speed is stronger.

http://www.bosch-ebike.de/en/komponenten/drive_unit/drive_unit.php#

 

[Rohloffboy]

Thanks again RobF, all is clear now and I have printed of the Bosch motor page, which gives all the outputs, I see what you mean about them aiming certain motors at Hubs and others at Deraileure's.

It all kinda make sense, especially when you look at the spec for the Speed motor, which has less Torque than the CX 250 Watt motor all interesting stuff, where I live it is the hills that kill me, which makes speed less important, and I can see 75nm of Torque be far more use to me than 48nm.

I wonder if any manufacturer is making an Ebike with the Bosch 250watt CX and Nuvinci 360, let alone a Rohloff Hub.

I am now thinking going more down the Bosch 250watt route and doing a retro Rohloff fit, like you say the Rohloff is bomb proof, and at first they were very conservative about the gear ratios, but they have relaxed that a lot in recent years.

You and others have been most helpful, and my path to Ebike heaven has taken a diversion from my first intentions.

 

[RobF]

Riese and Muller will - at vast expense - sell you a Rohloff or NuVinci bike with the performance motor.

Rider input with any Bosch bike makes a great deal of difference.

You may find that a standard Bosch motor, even a detuned hub gear one, has enough poke for your climbing needs.

Particularly if you are prepared to select first gear and spin for the steepest bits.

Some hub gear bikes don't have a very low first gear.

As you are aware, you can tinker with the range via cog sizes, although there are parameters.

On the same cogs, the Rohloff has three lower gears than my Alfine 11.

I've reduced mine a fair bit by cog swapping, although I suspect it slightly exceeds what Shimano recommend.

Even so, it will still do about 22mph in top at a comfortable cadence.

Fast enough for me, and an indication the original gearing was too high.

http://en.r-m.de/bike/delite-hybrid-rohloff/

 

[Rohloffboy]

Hi RobF, am right in thinking that the Bosch 250watt Performance CX 75nm is not available until 2016, and could explain why the Ghost Teru 4 is stated as 60nm and advertised as not available.

I am guessing that the Ghost Teru 4 comes with the Bosch Performance Cruise in it's advertised state so 250watt 60nm.

So I am thinking that the Ghost Teru 4 when it next becomes available could be fitted with the 75nm Bosch CX, or would that just be wishful thinking on my part.

 

[RobF]

Looks like the 2016 Teru 4 still has the performance motor.

I would expect that as an entry level model.

The CX motor will usually be paired with the bigger 500wh battery, although there's nothing to stop a maker offering a bike in any combination.

I've not tried to count the number of models in Cube's 2016 ebike range, but it must be 40 odd.

Don't get too hung up on the CX motor, unless you are going to hammer around in turbo all the time I doubt you will use the extra torque.

Even on my detuned bike, I can get up most things in tour or sport, and spend most of my journey in eco or tour.

A bike with the ordinary or performance motor and the 500wh battery would be my choice.

http://www.mhw-bike.com/ghost-teru-4-black-/-blue-/-white-2016-5017

http://www.cube.eu/uk/products/e-bike-trekking/

 

[Rohloffboy]

Hi RobF, this has all been a bit of a steep learning curve, but I am making progress now, the "Cube Cross Hybrid Race All Road 500" is looking like the main contender at the moment, shame that I would have to put the Rohloff on it, but I just can't be doing with Derailure gearing.

Again a lot cheaper than Kalkhoff, the Cube at £1800 is within budget for the project.

I can see now that I will regret having sold the Chain Tensioner that came with my Rohloff SpeedHub back in 2004, as my Rohloff bike is OEM.

Not to worry, and yes I think I may be hung up on the Bosch 250watt 75nm CX as I am a big believer in the saying "What Will Do More, Will Do Less".

 

[RobF]

Is that Cube 'only' £1,800?

Good price for a CX bike with the 500wh battery.

It was the bike I picked out of the range as a possible, although I'm not seriously looking at the moment.

Check the tyre size before you buy.

The spec sheet says 27.5", but the wheels in the pic are 29ers.

Makes a difference to frame sizing, and in your case, a difference to the gearing on your hub conversion.

http://www.cube.eu/uk/products/e-bike-trekking/cross-hybrid/cube-cross-hybrid-race-allroad-500-blackngreen-2016/

 

[Rohloffboy]

Yep something else to look out for, not sure that I would want a 29er friend has a MTB that has them, and it does look a bit ungainly to me.

Also just noticed on all the Ebikes that I have been looking at none are 26" Tyre size (Rim 559) all are bigger 27.7" and 28" etc, is this the norm, not to concerned about that, guess I am just used to riding 26" and can't see any reason for going bigger unless that size is not available.

 

[RobF]

A lot of the cheaper Chinese hub bikes have 26" wheels.

Nearly all Bosch bikes are 27.5" or 700c/29ers.

An exception is Riese and Muller.

Some of their Bosch bikes are 26".

The bigger wheels roll better, once up to speed.

But toe clearance can be a problem on a 29er with a small frame.

Some mountain push bike models have 27.5" in the small frame size and 29er in the larger frame.

You will need to think about the gearing when you put your Rohloff into a bigger wheel.

 

[Rohloffboy]

Yep, need to do some home work on the gearing when using the Rohloff. Back looking at bikes again, the Ghost Andasol 6 Man, seems to have a decent motor at 60nm, and with 28" wheel seems a good compromise, all for £1,680 from MHWBike.

Nearly all the contenders that I have looked at from MHWBike have been out of stock, including the above, not to worried about that as I was originally not buying until 2017, but I have decided to bring plans forward and will now be looking to purchase in early 2016.

This gives me time to get a better idea for the Rohloff upgrade, and it will be interesting to read how the OP get's on with that Rohloff conversion.

You would think that the likes of Shimano and Sram etc, would be doing Specific Ebike IGH's rather than the ones they use for ordinary pedal cycles, as it does seem to limit the motor choice.

I can see the Nuvinci 360 cornering the the market for Ebike Hubs, but I am not sure everyone would want it's CV feature, personally I prefer to select the gear that I want to use, not sure that works the same with the Nuvinci.