"Conversion kits to blame in 40% of ebike fires, says London Fire Brigade"

[Nealh]

It's not down to conversion kits because they are as safe as proprietary bike, the issue is the numb nut using an incorrect charger or charging the battery incorrectly, dare we say reverse charging and bypassing the safety features within or simply the wrong voltage charger.
I expect there is a fastfood motorbike forum which these guys use and from hearsay because numb nut A has done it all the numb nuts are likely to follow suit because numb nut A used a higher current rated charger so could do more deliveries .

 

[saneagle]

I expect there is a fastfood motorbike forum which these guys use and from hearsay because numb nut A has done it all the numb nuts are likely to follow suit because numb nut A used a higher current rated charger so could do more deliveries .

This is my theory too. The delivery guys need to charge their batteries quickly. Like many on this forum (dig), they have no idea how a battery or BMS work. One of them figures out that somebody on Battery University has shown that you can charge a cell at 5 amps, so they get a 20 amp charger for their 4P battery, and all their mates and colleauges start copying it.

Look at posts #5 & #8 here:

Why aren't there quick chargers for ebike?

Why aren't there quick chargers for ebike? I was looking at cell phones, and some of the largest smartphone companies like Xiaomi and Vivo have introduced quick chargers that can be charged 0% to 100% in 13 min to 17 min. Somebody here on EBR said that RC cars, boats or airplanes can be charged...

forums.electricbikereview.com

 

[portals]

???
It doesn't say e bikes catch fire - it says "conversion kits are to blame" which includes the batteries and chargers which is what I think you are saying? Where is the mis-information?

Nope, a conversion kit is what is says it is, a conversion kit so motor/controller/display/PAS/throttle/ebrake etc., no battery/charger....

I've never seen a kit that comes with a battery/charger because really they don't exist...you might see some shady dealers offering 'bundles', (kits+battery), most reputable dealers will offer a kit and a choice of batteries that are suitable depending on your needs or point you in right direction.

 

[sneggysteve]

Nope, a conversion kit is what is says it is, a conversion kit so motor/controller/display/PAS/throttle/ebrake etc., no battery/charger....

I've never seen a kit that comes with a battery/charger because really they don't exist...you might see some shady dealers offering 'bundles', (kits+battery), most reputable dealers will offer a kit and a choice of batteries that are suitable depending on your needs or point you in right direction.

Quote from Bikeradar site - "An electric bike conversion kit will include the motor to drive you along and the battery to power it. It also needs to include the apparatus to control the power output level. This usually takes the form of a bar-mounted display. "
Therefore for the general public, a battery and charger is part of the kit and so no need to go further in the headline

 

[Nealh]

The fires we here of in the very recent last couple of years are not down to kits but the poor knowledge of the cowboy bodgers fitting them they are simply mismatching battery/controllers/wiring or simply using a risky or incompatible charging process for said battery.

This forum has been going for along time and in the early days much of the talk was about the keen shed builder and kits , there is no talk of fires due to mismatched or wrong charging processes because folks followed the knowledge and built stuff safely.

It appears with the advent of fast charging and higher power illegal systems that we see issues, firstly it stemmed from the US and then the bodgers copy the yanks . To many fake tube viewers and other cowboys on arious websites giveing very poor info.

Thankfully I believe because of the very good advice given on this forum(whether or not it is all followed) we haven't had member report a fire on their own bike , is a testament of how to build or match components correctly.

Though of late their are more dodgy postings of irregular charging or reverse charging processes that are asking for trouble.

 

[sjpt]

Nope, a conversion kit is what is says it is, a conversion kit so motor/controller/display/PAS/throttle/ebrake etc., no battery/charger....

I've never seen a kit that comes with a battery/charger because really they don't exist...you might see some shady dealers offering 'bundles', (kits+battery), most reputable dealers will offer a kit and a choice of batteries that are suitable depending on your needs or point you in right direction.

Yes, there will be a choice of batteries, just as there is a choice of motor and sometimes of controller and display as well. I'd guess ,ore kits come with batteries than without.

 

[Woosh]

Batteries are inherently safer than town gas or electricity if built, used correctly and not abused or soaked in rainwater or sea spray.
There is really nothing to worry about when you follow the manufacturers' recommendations.

I always take an interest in the e-bikes of the Uber Eats crowd at the top end of Southend High Street. They typically have 1kw DD rear hub motor, two batteries each, usually one large triangkle pack from Chinese Unit Pack Power (UPP), a second HL downtube pack either perched on top of the top tube or on top of the rear rack. That's probably why I think parallel up batteries is a bad idea. Reverse charging batteries is never recommended by any battery manufacturers.
Controllers sometimes are strapped to seat tubes to be rained on, wires are always everywhere, insulation tapes peeling in places. They are fires waiting to happen.

 

[saneagle]

Batteries are inherently safer than town gas or electricity if built, used correctly and not abused or soaked in rainwater or sea spray.
There is really nothing to worry about when you follow the manufacturers' recommendations.

I always take an interest in the e-bikes of the Uber Eats crowd at the top end of Southend High Street. They typically have 1kw DD rear hub motor, two batteries each, usually one large triangkle pack from Chinese Unit Pack Power (UPP), a second HL downtube pack either perched on top of the top tube or on top of the rear rack. That's probably why I think parallel up batteries is a bad idea. Reverse charging batteries is never recommended by any battery manufacturers.
Controllers sometimes are strapped to seat tubes to be rained on, wires are always everywhere, insulation tapes peeling in places. They are fires waiting to happen.

That's very much the same as what I see from time to time. Every bike I see that has a 100w motor in the back wheel has a massive frame bag battery, and frequently another one strapped on somewhere with wires going in every direction.

 

[Chris M]

It is certain that battery fires can be a problem so it would be good to see proper information on this subject.
The information I would like is as follows:-
1. Do fires ever occur when a battery is lying dormant or do they only happen during charging. This is important as I want to know whether to keep batteries in the house when not in use.
2. Of the fires that do not arise from conversion kits what has happened? For instance. Was the original battery and charger being used or had there been substitutes? Was the battery left on charge way past being fully charged? What were the probable causes of the fire?
3. Has any brand got a high or low ration of battery fires? That would certainly influence any future purchase.

As ebikes continue to rise in popularity it is essential that buyers are educated on batteries and charging as lives will be lost. I'm told lives have already been lost in the USA.

At the moment I have two ebikes with different batteries. Both are well known brands. I do store the batteries in the house all the time. I only charge them when I am able to keep a watch on them, I only use the charger that came with the bike and I unplug the charger as soon as I notice charging is complete. I would never leave a battery on charge overnight or when I am not in the house. I think my approach is sensible and safe but it would be useful to follow guidance based on how fires have occurred in the past. Seeing that 60% of fires have occurred on purchased ebikes rather than conversions is a tad unsettling.

 

[StuartsProjects]

I assume we would all like to see more information on 'battery' fires, but for that to happen them in power would need to change the reporting rules (IRS) that the Fire Brigades use, as reported in an earlier thread;

https://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/media/sgyikuwb/esf_batterybreakdown_report_2023_v7_-final.pdf

"The Incident Recording System (IRS) is a national data
collection system, which collects detailed information
on all incidents attended by fire and rescue services
(FRSs). The IRS enables data on all incidents attended
by the UK FRSs to be collected electronically and
verified at source. This significantly improves the
timeliness and accuracy of data compared to the
paper-based ‘FDR1’ form collection process used
in the past.

However, the quality of the fire data
recorded at national level does not allow fires to
be attributed specifically to lithium-ion batteries,
e-scooters or e-bikes: the IRS currently has no
‘e-scooter’ or ‘e-bike’ category. Firefighters must
record that a fire involving one of these vehicles in an
open text box field. Information entered in an open
text box field does not appear in the publicly available
fire statistics published by the Home Office.
Such deficiencies in the IRS are hampering
developments in fire prevention strategies required
to mitigate fires from lithium-ion batteries. These
deficiencies need to be addressed as a priority."

 

[StuartsProjects]

Seeing that 60% of fires have occurred on purchased ebikes rather than conversions is a tad unsettling.

Whether it 'unsettling' to me would depend on the ratio of purchased eBikes versus Conversion kits that are in actual use.

Anyone know ?

 

[Woosh]

Batteries are very safe. I don't think you should worry about them, just follow manufacturers recommendations. There are more dangerous stuff around the house than bike batteries. The main reasons for fires are faulty wiring, poor quality cells and faulty chargers/BMS. Those causes are not common in well made bikes but prevalent in kits because people shop on price and possibly are inexperienced in electrical wiring. I read somewhere that there are reported cases where the fire starts at the charging socket. That's something you can check if the charging socket is getting loosened.

 

[guerney]

Whether it 'unsettling' to me would depend on the ratio of purchased eBikes versus Conversion kits that are in actual use.

I wouldn't find it 'unsettling' if the ratio of conversions to purchased bikes was 10 to 1 or more, because as we've seen on this forum, people tend to enquire after the cheapest possible batteries, which are much less likely to be capable of supplying the amps required for their bikes, charging rapidly, derestriction etc... and if they're lucky, the result will be early demise of said batteries, which may manifest as dull unexciting failure or total conflageration. Given the millions of ebikes and escooters in use, the numbers strongly suggest the vast majority of battery failures are dull experiences.

 

[flecc]

Meanwhile we have to put up with the scaremongering, for example:

ITV on Thursday 31st at 8.30 PM have scheduled a program in the "Tonight" series titled:

E-bikes and Scooters: Trouble on the Road?

Sub titled: Adam Shaw investigates whether electric bikes and scooters are causing more harm than good.
.

 

[StuartsProjects]

Meanwhile we have to put up with the scaremongering, for example:

ITV on Thursday 31st at 8.30 PM have scheduled a program in the "Tonight" series titled:

E-bikes and Scooters: Trouble on the Road?

Sub titled: Adam Shaw investigates whether electric bikes and scooters are causing more harm than good.
.

Most interesting.

Wonder if they will have the almost inevitable poll of Motorists with the question;

"Do you think eBikes are a good thing ?"

 

[Nealh]

The polls are useless because if you asked the same question to EAPC users whether cars are a good thing you might get a similar answer.

 

[Forb]

How many deaths need to happen until it triggers the "something has to be done about it" feature in government?

Technically, I think the way that politics works, it has to be 2,000+ deaths (as per 9/11), or 1 small, attractive blonde (as per Maddie, Lucie Blackman etc), or will a single Grenfell Tower suffice?

Given how many of the delivery riders are illegals, or at the very bottom of society as far as income and hence accommodation levels, it's not going to be long until some over-occupied rental house full of them is going to be burned down.

I'm so sick of those guys and their out of control, illegal lash ups. They are bad news for bicycling, bad news for e-biking, bad news for pedestrians, and even as a confident cyclists, I feel more unsafe around them than I do cars. Even their mini-cab driving kin. They're riding illegal motorcycles without a clue about the Highway Code, and without a care about being stopped, caught or held responsible for doing so. I've nearly been hit a few times but some punk looking at his phone/map, on the wrong side of the road.

The other day, I saw one that had 3 large batteries gaffer taped to frame.

What's the deal with them, do they come into the country on a holiday visa then work their asses off for 3 months or something?

Apparently, from others who have tried to complain, the Tories don't want to do anything about it because, allegedly, it's good for promoting alternative transport systems. I tried before they unleashed e-scooters on society via my MP warning them that they were going to kill. They did nothing. And, yes, people are dying.

Just spoke to a guy yesterday who had suffered a 4.5 hour operation to try and restore torn ligaments on his arm after having been hit by one of these illegal e-bike delivery riders. Ugly 6" scar, full use not restored. Rider just rode off.

It's bad for the rest of us because it's going to end up with number plates and insurance for us, while they still run illegally.

 

[Forb]

Batteries are inherently safer than town gas or electricity if built ...

You have more faith in Chinese quality control and adherence to manufacturing standards than I do. I don't know about "inherently safe" though due to the duration and intensity of a battery fire.

With private imports off AliBaba flooding into the country, how can this risk ever be stopped now?

And, joys of joys, I can imagine the circular conversions between trading standards, the police, and Amazon going on as to whose responsibility it is to do something about it. Global, free market capitalism, "the gift that keeps giving". Troubles.

 

[Woosh]

You have more faith in Chinese quality control and adherence to manufacturing standards than I do. I don't know about "inherently safe" though due to the duration and intensity of a battery fire.

Chinese factories build stuff for the whole world, from Apple iPhones to earbuds that you find in Poundland shops, so if you lump them together, then the quality is bound to be variable. The fault is in the consumers' quest for the cheapest kits and when they go t*ts up, blame the Chinese and not the consumers or the sellers.
The amount of energy contained is a 36V 15AH e-bike battery is about a quater of what is in a litre of vegetable oil, so not very big, about an average chip pan fire. The danger is from a possible explosion and inhaling smoke. You can do something about both, buy only batteries made with properly QC cylindrical cells which have steel case and built-in anti-explosion device, and keep your bike in a shelter.

 

[AntonyC]

Although to be fair you can smother a chip pan fire and it takes longer to release its energy.

The main reasons for fires are faulty wiring, poor quality cells and faulty chargers/BMS.

Agreed but ignorance and abuse probably take first place as causes, like indoor charging, unsuitable fast chargers or twist and tape bikes.

Good advice so spread the word.

Overcharging is a clear risk but requiring distinct charge plugs would overly constrain the market. I'd like to know what sellers would think of pairing their bikes and chargers using colourful stickers, friendlier than ratings plates? An icon based on the ratings acts like a key, making it quick to find the right charger and obvious if another with the same plug is unsuitable.

If something like that were adopted it all adds to what we can point to when the inevitable questions about regulation come up.