Comment on another sad e-scooter death

[Scorpio]

< text removed>...
First regarding charging. There are some 6000 IC fuel stations in the uk now, well down from what it was at one time. There are now over 36,000 public charging points with over 61,000 connectors in over 21,900 locations, huge coverage.

Admittedfly not evenly distributed, but that isn't as important as the doubters imagine. What matters is that almost all who have bought an e-car have a home charging point, that being well over half a million points additional to the public ones. That means that unlike ic cars, they can always leave home with a full"tank". Since most of them sold today have a circa 200 mile range and the average UK driver covers just 7300 miles a year, 20 miles a day, they don't need lots of public points in their area. And on the rare occasion when they do need one on a long trip, theres bound to be many ultra fast ones well within 200 miles of them!!

Second regarding maintenance. The e-side needs no attention, being like the old milk floats unfailingly reliable year after year. The rest is just an ordinary car, except not wearing the brakes out since the motor does most of the braking by regeneration. So any competent existing dealer is all one needs.


No chance for them to succeed. As we get ever closer to the 2050 deadline to achieve carbon neutral the government will act ever more decisively against the existing ic cars with compulsory scrappage schemes and other restraints.

The other problem will be that as IC cars wear out or crash so disappearing over a 20 year average life period, their fuel stations will too. The sheer inconvenience of that will make ic car use increasingly annoying, back to the earliest days of the ic car when their drivers went to the chemist to buy a can of petrol!!
,

I agree with some of your points but think you've missed something

Charging. I know 2 people who are waiting for their first EV (Tessla) to be delivered. One lives in a rental property and can't/won't fit a charger, the other has been waiting months to have a charger installed (due to problems within the supply company). Anecdotal a friend works at a company where 4 of the directors have EV's, only 1 has a charge point at home. They have 2 charge points in the works carpark and the directors say that in't convenient. I disagree that most people who buy an EV have a charger at home.

Maintenance. Modern EV's are very complex and cannot be compared to old milk floats ! The old milk floats had simple car-type lead batteries, an electric motor, and the electronics were little more than an on/off accelerator.

I'd agree the government schemes will continue to make EV's attractive while penalising IC. The 2 people I know who are waiting for Tesslas only bought because it allows them to remove funds from their business without paying tax. One is selling a car she bought last year that she expected to keep for 10+ years. Government policy has very clearly changed her car buying decisions.

Complexity. I repair my own vehicles (currently 2 basic cars from the 1970s and 1 from 1990, so ages range 30 to over 50 years old). I do not believe newer EV's will survive past 20 years as it will be uneconomical to replace failing batteries and the technology will be obsolete by then anyway.
I recently scrapped a modern BMW (2007 325 saloon) due to too many electrical problems. It's the only car in 20 years that left me stranded - and it happened twice with different faults ! A faulty brake warning light was going to fail the next MOT and fixing the warning light was going to be a £2000 repair (it needed a new cruise control unit, then taking to a BMW dealer so the electronics could be reset). Electronics on modern cars are too complex to repair economically.

 

[saneagle]

Oh, the irony! Your sources are WorldNetDaily; a far-right 'fake news' website, and Climate Change Dispatch; a right-wing 'climate change denial' forum.

Exactly! Who do you trust? Why would a right leaning organisation be more trustworthy than a left one, or not?
To verify or counter what WorldNet Daily says, can you show David Van Zandt's qualifications as a fact checker?

 

[Chainmale]

One aspect of e cars that hasn't been mentioned is the
excessive weight of most of them. Bad enough to be hit by a 1.5 ton metal box let alone a 2.5 ton plus one. Maybe there is a case for vehicle excise duty to be weight based in future.

 

[danielrlee]

Exactly! Who do you trust? Why would a right leaning organisation be more trustworthy than a left one, or not?
To verify or counter what WorldNet Daily says, can you show David Van Zandt's qualifications as a fact checker?

No, I can't, but that doesn't make MBFC incorrect. If you'd rather trust climate change denial and fake news outlets, that's your lookout.

We all know how much of the right-biased media function - throw enough sh*t in the hope of some of it sticking. Lies halfway round the world by breakfast before the truth has got its trousers on.

I actually rate Politifact quite highly, but note you didn't include any sources from them to back up your claim. I couldn't personally find any valid sources. Do you know of any?

 

[soundwave]

Reported road casualties Great Britain: e-Scooter factsheet 2021

www.gov.uk

 

[snafu]

Here I dont agree. Electric motors have long been perfected to their limits, and with batteries it took 200 years to get from lead acid to lithium, with some duds on the way like NiCad and NiMh. There isn't the slightest indication this will improve. Hydrogen fuel cells have a future, but it is a very expensive technology further limiting ownership and mass production of hydrogen is full of difficulties.

The e-cars of 2040 will be just like today's ones, but owned by far fewer.
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I don't share your pessimism. I think there will be significant development as newer technology allows us to push the boundaries further. I raced electric model cars back in the 80's and we all thought NiCads and brushed motors were the answer to everything and would only be developed further. I think the current lithium chemistry is just another stepping stone and believe superior technologies are waiting to be discovered/developed. Let's face it lithium is just another finite resource and it's extraction using current methods isn't the "Greenest of processes".

Mind you it's all academic as once I have ironed out the issues with my Star Trek transporter device I'll conquer the world. Just need a new Flux Capacitor and replace the diesel engine used to energise the coils.

TTFN
John.

 

[flecc]

I agree with some of your points but think you've missed something

Charging. I know 2 people who are waiting for their first EV (Tessla) to be delivered. One lives in a rental property and can't/won't fit a charger, the other has been waiting months to have a charger installed (due to problems within the supply company). Anecdotal a friend works at a company where 4 of the directors have EV's, only 1 has a charge point at home. They have 2 charge points in the works carpark and the directors say that in't convenient. I disagree that most people who buy an EV have a charger at home.

Maintenance. Modern EV's are very complex and cannot be compared to old milk floats ! The old milk floats had simple car-type lead batteries, an electric motor, and the electronics were little more than an on/off accelerator.

I'd agree the government schemes will continue to make EV's attractive while penalising IC. The 2 people I know who are waiting for Tesslas only bought because it allows them to remove funds from their business without paying tax. One is selling a car she bought last year that she expected to keep for 10+ years. Government policy has very clearly changed her car buying decisions.

Complexity. I repair my own vehicles (currently 2 basic cars from the 1970s and 1 from 1990, so ages range 30 to over 50 years old). I do not believe newer EV's will survive past 20 years as it will be uneconomical to replace failing batteries and the technology will be obsolete by then anyway.
I recently scrapped a modern BMW (2007 325 saloon) due to too many electrical problems. It's the only car in 20 years that left me stranded - and it happened twice with different faults ! A faulty brake warning light was going to fail the next MOT and fixing the warning light was going to be a £2000 repair (it needed a new cruise control unit, then taking to a BMW dealer so the electronics could be reset). Electronics on modern cars are too complex to repair economically.

Oh dear, Tesla and BMW. Talk about asking for it! I wouldn't buy either make. Any other make than Tesla and you can get a home charger installed immediately, even with a choice of charger makes and types.

It doesn't matter that modern EV's are very complex when they don't go wrong. You can still carry out all the things you are competent to do on IC cars on modern EVs, since everything outside the ev drive system is identical. That is even to the extent of the familiar car electrical system and 12 volt battery, since they have usually been retained.

You are completely wrong to say that most people who buy an EV do not have a charger at home. It is an established fact that they do, as the government well knows since they've been paying for all the charger installation grants. Despite the fact that owners sometimes have to charge away from home, 80% of all e-car charging is done at home. A few have bought plug-in hybrids without having a home charger, relying more on the petrol drive, more fool them, but they are not proper e-cars anyway.

The technology of today's e-cars and batteries will not be out of date in less than 20 years time, making them unrepairable. Once again for the umpteenth time in this forum, it took 200 years to get from lead acid to Lithium batteries, and lead acid is still the most widely used rechargeable battery type in the world. On the present rate of progress it could take as long again to get better.

And I'm telling you these things as a fully qualified motor mechanic with five years of ownership of an e-car which has never seen a garage for repair or service, only an MOT station from the 3 year point.
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[soundwave]

these cars have computers inside them with ram and gfx cards so will be out of date in ten years or less.

so if they dont make the chips anymore like an iphone it is a bin job.

also like apple amd and intel will not sell there cpus to the public even if you had the equipment to fix it your self.

and they tell other company's they use not to sell parts either to force you to buy another one.

just look at lap tops they used to have a socket for the cpu ram slots so you could upgrade and a hdd you could replace.

now it is all soldered to the pcb so upgrades are near impossible.

company's do convert cars to electric without all this pc crap apps and subscriptions but this is what the corporations want as you can pay monthley for those heated seats bitch

 

[flecc]

One aspect of e cars that hasn't been mentioned is the
excessive weight of most of them. Bad enough to be hit by a 1.5 ton metal box let alone a 2.5 ton plus one. Maybe there is a case for vehicle excise duty to be weight based in future.

Not that bad. My 15 foot long 2018 Nissan Leaf, if an IC car would weigh circa 1.3 tons. As an e-car it weighs barely over 1.5 tons.

That is because like all e-cars, considerable efforts have
been made to lighten the whole design to compensate for the battery weight.

Another of the very many things the general public don't know about e-cars.
.

 

[Chainmale]

Not that bad. My 15 foot long 2018 Nissan Leaf, if an IC car would weigh circa 1.3 tons. As an e-car it weighs barely over 1.5 tons.

That is because like all e-cars, considerable efforts have
been made to lighten the whole design to compensate for the battery weight.

Another of the very many things the general public don't know about e-cars.
.

True but manufacturers seem to be favouring the so called SUV market (was there ever a more innapropriate nomenclature) and many of those overbloated monstrosities are starting to approach 3 tons

 

[flecc]

True but manufacturers seem to be favouring the so called SUV market (was there ever a more innapropriate nomenclature) and many of those overbloated monstrosities are starting to approach 3 tons

Indeed and what I've been posting about, deliberately moving e-cars into the luxury market to improve the industry's very poor profitability.

Even Nissan too, ending the Leaf next year with its replacement, the Ariya SUV starting at £10 k dearer.

Among all the manufacturers only Renault seem to be wanting to keep supplying cheap cars with their ic Dacia range. However even their little Zoe e-car now starts at just short of £30,000.
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[AndyBike]

I saw this a few weeks back.

 

[soundwave]

I saw this a few weeks back.

this is better

 

[richtea99]

Agreed, but why do EV's cost so much to buy? Taking the component count of an EV it's a lot less than a typical IC vehicle, there is a lot less labour involved in production. There is more electronics for sure but look at the price of computers and white goods compared to 30 years ago. They are a lot cheaper now in real terms.

Because the market supports that price. And that's great - early adopters take a hit to have the latest and greatest, which means in 5 years time I may be able to afford (a secondhand) one. I'm just gobsmacked that the price of an average car is not far off the average annual wage.

[I'll just wait here quietly for someone to prove it was ever thus! ]

 

[Bikes4two]

Now various agenda of EV have been aired..... back to the OP

• It's tragic that that girl has died, what ever the circumstances and some sympathy is due to the poor soul who has caused the death (not responsible for it I hope, just an innocent road user - but the Independant article thoughtlessly doesn't cover that)
• So the linked article says the East London Coroner reports that e-scooter deaths have double - doubled from what to what I wonder - is it from one to two or 500 to a 1000?
• As usual, the newspaper goes more for 'click bait' headlines than fully informed pieces to give a more balanced view.
• But hey, why let truth get in the way of a good story!

PS - the EV debate - I like to read the informed views above - a question though - would somelike to bring into the debate the long term strategy and environmental effects of the eventual disposal of all those EV batteries (assuming of course that there are enough 'rare erth' materials to make them in the first place).

 

[snafu]

PS - the EV debate - I like to read the informed views above - a question though - would somelike to bring into the debate the long term strategy and environmental effects of the eventual disposal of all those EV batteries (assuming of course that there are enough 'rare erth' materials to make them in the first place).

Well I'm certainly no expert on this but I do know that there are already many uses already for repurposed EV batteries.

There are companies who will sell you a "powerwall" made from old EV batteries which will work in conjunction with solar/wind etc to run off grid properties. Renault and Nissan are working on a scheme called Powervault. Nissan also repurpose old leaf batteries to provide backup for Ajax FC, Toyota have a scheme in Japan to use Solar and old EV batteries to power fridges etc in shops.

Once they have nothing left to give there is still the various elements which can be extracted by various processes. I personally don't think sending them to landfill will make financial (Or environmental) sense, there is simply too much useful stuff in them.

Of course this probably will not stop our government from sending them all abroad for recycling so others can benefit from the extracted components and then sell them back to us at significant profit.

TTFN
John.

 

[soundwave]

Because the market supports that price. And that's great - early adopters take a hit to have the latest and greatest, which means in 5 years time I may be able to afford (a secondhand) one. I'm just gobsmacked that the price of an average car is not far off the average annual wage.

[I'll just wait here quietly for someone to prove it was ever thus! ]

 

[guerney]

As with electric bikes, tinkerers will always find a way to convert cars at lower cost... and for decades, there will be non-running IC cars to import and convert.

Electric Car Conversion Law in the UK: Things You Need To Know

Is it legal to retrofit petrol or diesel car to electric? What is the UK law for EV conversion?

www.joinbonnet.com

 

[flecc]

PS - the EV debate - I like to read the informed views above - a question though - would somelike to bring into the debate the long term strategy and environmental effects of the eventual disposal of all those EV batteries (assuming of course that there are enough 'rare erth' materials to make them in the first place).

As John has said in this post, to which I add that there is already a large lithium battery recycling plant in Belgium to extract the lithium and more are planned.

But of course it's early days yet since the car batteries have been lasting for ten years or more and then living on in the other uses mentioned for a few more years.

There's plenty of so called rare earths like lithium, which is why worldwide we are forging ahead with universal e-cars, vans, trucks and buses. If there was a real prospect of running out soon we wouldn't be doing that.

It's just the very easy to get at that will run out after a while, but that has ever been so with oil, coal and numerous other minerals. We start by picking them up off the ground and end by mining them from the depths of the land and oceans.
.

 

[I893469365902345609348566]

Electric scooters are death traps which can topple over for no reason. I stopped to see if he needed help. He needs mental help.

Here are mum and dad idiots I saw training their daughter for her fatal crash