Close passing

[trevor brooker]

This morning on the way back from shopping a supermarket home delivery van passed me at a distance that made me feel uncomfortable if I had stretched out my arm I could have touched him.
I soon sat besides him at traffic lights, where I looked at him until he turned to face me, when I said in a calm & normal voice "you were a bit close when you overtook me".
He looked at me & thought for a while, wound the window down & said "you should have been more inside".
The lights turned green, he turned left & I went straight on.
I had to work out what he meant, I had been in my usual left hand side wheel rut, then I realised he did not regard me as a Road Traffic Vehicle but instead I should have been in the gutter.
I had been reading a book on how the brain works, & we are hard wired to form social groups - I was not in the car group but in a minority 2 wheeled sect.
I am glad we had our conversation as its given me an insight into how a minority of drivers view cyclists.
I was also amused by how very "civilised" our talk had been conducted - if he had been closer I would have been annoyed & his reaction would have mirrored mine.

 

[Nealh]

Name and shame the super market.
If you had taken note of the vehicle reg and reported it to said supermarket, then the driver would likely at least been spoken to about his driving from management following a complaint.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

How far from the kerb were you when he passed?

 

[Benjahmin]

Ride two to three feet out from the kerb. Own the road space, try to make it apparent to mototrists that you are not something just to be passed but a vehicle that has to be overtaken. There is a distinct difference.
This makes it obvious that to get past you a car/ van, whatever, has to go over the white line, making the majority think twice. Of course there are always the people who are far too important to slow down for 3-4 seconds and blast past you when something is coming the other way. If you are 2-3 feet from the kerb you have somewhere to go, if you're already in the gutter you don't.
On the other side, if I have a motor behind me I will wave them on if I see round a corner before they can.
A mirror is essental to guage how you are being approached and by what.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

Ride two to three feet out from the kerb. Own the road space, try to make it apparent to mototrists that you are not something just to be passed but a vehicle that has to be overtaken. There is a distinct difference.
This makes it obvious that to get past you a car/ van, whatever, has to go over the white line, making the majority think twice. Of course there are always the people who are far too important to slow down for 3-4 seconds and blast past you when something is coming the other way. If you are 2-3 feet from the kerb you have somewhere to go, if you're already in the gutter you don't.
On the other side, if I have a motor behind me I will wave them on if I see round a corner before they can.
A mirror is essental to guage how you are being approached and by what.

I can see why you have near misses with that attitude, do you drive a car?

 

[trevor brooker]

Name and shame the super market.
If you had taken note of the vehicle reg and reported it to said supermarket, then the driver would likely at least been spoken to about his driving from management following a complaint.

Good point that I had not thought of.

If it had been dangerously close, rather than just making me feel uncomfortable then that's what I will do.

Because its a busy main road I have got habituated to vehicles passing fairly close & it was only because we were the only vehicles on the road at that time in the morning that I thought "why did you need to be so close".

Normally I just shrug it off & carry on.

 

[Fishy]

Ride two to three feet out from the kerb. Own the road space, try to make it apparent to mototrists that you are not something just to be passed but a vehicle that has to be overtaken. There is a distinct difference.
This makes it obvious that to get past you a car/ van, whatever, has to go over the white line, making the majority think twice. Of course there are always the people who are far too important to slow down for 3-4 seconds and blast past you when something is coming the other way. If you are 2-3 feet from the kerb you have somewhere to go, if you're already in the gutter you don't.
On the other side, if I have a motor behind me I will wave them on if I see round a corner before they can.
A mirror is essental to guage how you are being approached and by what.

Totally agree with this. I've tried both ways, hugging the edge, and dominating the centre of the lane.
In my experience, when I'm close to the side, vehicles will pass, regardless of whether there's anything coming the other way, if they don't have to cross the centre line, they seem to think it's OK, however close they get to you, when riding in the centre, they wait till it's safe to overtake.
Having said that, I always try to make room if possible, and give way where necessary.
Yes, I also drive a car. And when driving, I treat other road users with respect, especially cyclists, and I hope to be treated with the same respect when I'm on my bike.

 

[trevor brooker]

How far from the kerb were you when he passed?

In the left hand wheel rut - so that's normally 2 to 3 feet out from the kerb.

Closer to the kerb is full of rubbish, further to the middle gets drivers annoyed, despite the fact that in order to overtake me they will need to be (at least partly) on the over side of the road.

 

[Nealh]

A multi national/logoed vehicle is a companies corporate advertising and some some fleet management take it seriously when a complaint is received of bad driving/close or even and uncomfortable pass.
Sainsburys for instance have a clear policy and know it reflects badly on them so any driver is grilled if a complaint is received and I know from insider info, drivers being removed from driving company vans for good and even dismissed. Their vans are now GPS speed monitored by telematics and have stickers on the back saying so, the telematics also record bad driving behaviour like harsh cornering, braking and acceleration including unnecessary idling.
Locally a few years ago an aggregate haulier sacked a driver after footage went viral of very poor driving as a driver decided to go around a mini round about on the wrong side of the road including passing the pedestrian bollarded crossing on the wrong side afterwards.

Stick a camera front and rear and then forward any bad footage to the company most with a decent system in place will act on it.

 

[Nealh]

Cameras can work and do some times help even with private motons.
Recently on CUK forum a cyclist was taken out by an ex copper (she denied all responsibility) due to poor driver overtaking and perception of the road constraints ahead, on viewing the footage even Plod saw nothing wrong and even claimed the cyclist was the cause the incident.
After toing and froing the cyclist was able to get the drivers insurers details and forwarded the front and rear footage to the insurers, despite the non action of the useless Plod the insurers viewed the footage and have accepted liability for the incident by the driver.

 

[flecc]

I see both points of view, Benjahmin's and Ebiker99's.

Where I live, drive and ride in and around London, having vehicles pass at a clear arms length is a bit of a luxury, since it's all too often impossible for them to leave the prescribed one and a half metres. The city would be near to a standstill if every driver had to leave that with every pass.

I'm happy if a vehicle passes a foot clear of the mirror on the end of my handlebar when that's all the driver has available due to opposing traffic, road islands etc. I'll even wave them through when they are nervously hanging back. But of course at obvious danger points I ride well out from the kerb and dominate the lane to block any dangerous pass, aided by my having a mirror and using it all the time.
.

 

[Nealh]

No close pass is good but a moton who passes at a slower speed is far more conscious of the affects then the motons who don't give a toss.

 

[Andy-Mat]

This morning on the way back from shopping a supermarket home delivery van passed me at a distance that made me feel uncomfortable if I had stretched out my arm I could have touched him.
I soon sat besides him at traffic lights, where I looked at him until he turned to face me, when I said in a calm & normal voice "you were a bit close when you overtook me".
He looked at me & thought for a while, wound the window down & said "you should have been more inside".
The lights turned green, he turned left & I went straight on.
I had to work out what he meant, I had been in my usual left hand side wheel rut, then I realised he did not regard me as a Road Traffic Vehicle but instead I should have been in the gutter.
I had been reading a book on how the brain works, & we are hard wired to form social groups - I was not in the car group but in a minority 2 wheeled sect.
I am glad we had our conversation as its given me an insight into how a minority of drivers view cyclists.
I was also amused by how very "civilised" our talk had been conducted - if he had been closer I would have been annoyed & his reaction would have mirrored mine.

Some years ago, an avid bike friend (not yet an e-biker, though I am working on him!), had a not dissimilar experience.
He spent a lot of time how to passively improve the situation and came up with a very simple idea. He bought one of those "things" that you fold out on the offside, to warn car drivers to give you more room, I do not have a clue what they are called. He made a longer, arm and a stronger spring to always push it out firmly, and he added a screw that he had ground to a sharp point at the outside end!
If a car drives too close, they will hit it and get scratched! But according to him, it has never ever happened since.
If you look at the right hand side of this picture below, you can see one poking out from behind the pannier on this French Bike safety infos...round with a reflector front and back.
Generally white at the front and red at the back. Though this picture is showing red to the front apparently
"Ecarteur de Danger" in French I think!


hen I looked for that I found this;.


And on that page I saw this:-

Something like that, spring loaded, should keep you safe!
regards
Andy

 

[trevor brooker]

And on that page I saw this:-
View attachment 33282
Something like that, spring loaded, should keep you safe!
regards Andy

I've seen these on ebay etc but I could not work out how to get my leg over!

I stand on my right foot, lean the bike towards me & swing my left leg over the panniers & saddle. If I had a warning flag sticking out I would knock it.

I had seen this concept some years ago & experimented with a white plastic pipe attached to the handlebars. Yes it made the bike wider but that was the problem when pulling alongside traffic, so I gave up on it.

 

[Deleted member 25121]

One of the reasons for all the animosity on the UK's roads is users thinking they own the roads, we have drivers thinking they own the middle or offside lanes on motorways, motorcyclists who think they can use any lane and the space between lanes at any time and cyclists who think they own their lane - if you're cycling 1m from the kerb, your handlebars and mirrors are 1m wide and motorists need to allow 1.5 m that's 3.5m you're occupying.

To put that into perspective, the standard width of a motorway lane is 3.7m.

 

[vfr400]

I don't think you can make any rule about what you should do or what you can expect from drivers. If you cycle a reasonable distance from the curb, some drivers will be too scared to overtake and some that will want to teach you a lesson about why you shouldn't be that far out, though most drivers will behave sensibly.

If you cycle too close to the gutter, you'll get more punctures because that's where the debris collects.

I think you just have to be sensible. I change my positioning according to the road width, the amount of traffic and where there are hazards. I do my best not to impede the traffic as long as the drivers aren't trying to squeeze through too tightly. When there's something like a bollard in the middle of the road, I move closer to the centre of the lane to discourage drivers from trying to squeeze through, though the odd one does it anyway. It's funny watching them trying to steer to avoid the curb around the bollard. I bet that they missed a few heart-beats in the process.

I think it's important to always get well out into the middle of the road before you pass any parked cars. That does annoy some drivers, but I can imagine that many would be otherwise oblivious to your presence, which could be very dangerous when you suddenly appeared from behind the parked car to alongside it when they were going to squeeze past with traffic coming the other way.

One time, I was out for a ride with a friend along an open A road. We were cycling in the 2 ft gap between the white line and the edge of the road, when a guy in a Jaguar flew past at something like 100 mph inches from us. I'm sure it was deliberate. I guess some people are like that, but what can you do?

 

[flecc]

View attachment 33282
Something like that, spring loaded, should keep you safe!
regards, Andy

That's anti-social though, as Trevor remarks above, a problem in a traffic queue at lights etc. And there's many a driver of a scruffy pickup or truck who wouldn't be bothered about a scrape.

The French version no wider than the cyclist that you illustrated makes more sense.
.

 

[Andy-Mat]

I've seen these on ebay etc but I could not work out how to get my leg over!

I stand on my right foot, lean the bike towards me & swing my left leg over the panniers & saddle. If I had a warning flag sticking out I would knock it.

I had seen this concept some years ago & experimented with a white plastic pipe attached to the handlebars. Yes it made the bike wider but that was the problem when pulling alongside traffic, so I gave up on it.

If it was mounted on the handle bars, maybe you could make it so that it could be telescopic, to stow it hen not needed.
I always recommend getting on from the nearside of the bike, as the unit should be mounted on the offside of course, and being spring loaded, they should just spring back into position if touched.

Usually they are mounted, as the French picture showed, behind the panniers or carrier, not on the saddle as in one photo, I put the photo there more to demonstrate the length that it can be.....
For a DIYer, it would be easy to make one that would "stow" at the press of a button when going between other vehicles I feel....
regards
Andy

 

[Andy-Mat]

That's anti-social though, as Trevor remarks above, a problem in a traffic queue at lights etc. And there's many a driver of a scruffy pickup or truck who wouldn't be bothered about a scrape.

The French version no wider than the cyclist that you illustrated makes more sense.
.

What some drivers do is really anti social I feel.
Its still better than getting run off the road or even knocked off and under the wheels of a lorry.
So if it keeps the rowdy drivers 50 cms farther away from you I feel!
Its a free choice of course either way!
Andy

 

[flecc]

I think it's important to always get well out into the middle of the road before you pass any parked cars.

This is where I find the combination of an e-bike and a mirror that I use is perfect. With use it's easy to know when the driver will arrive at the parked car and I'm able to slightly regulate my speed to arrive at a fractionally different time. The e-power makes that easy to do at no cost in effort.

I have another trick in suburban areas where numerous houses have kerb drops for their car entries into drives. I just use the drop points to pass the parked car by momentarily taking to the pavement when it's empty of pedestrians as suburban pavements generally are. Drivers, including the police, appreciate that.
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