China Suprise

[Biggles]

I have just come back from China. I was astounded by the amount of electric step through scooters in the citys. Even more surprising was the speed and power of them. Often seeing 3 people and a big dog, or even 4 people on one and it still bowling along.

Why have these not taken off here in the UK. Where can I find out more?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

They're sort of illegal in the UK because they're over 250w and don't have type approval to be registered for other classes of vehicle. I too think it's a shame. They only cost about £200 in China, and they seem to go on for years.

 

[flecc]

And sadly they are becoming illegal In China too, since they are gradually phasing in EU type 250 watts law which will make them all motor vehicles there as they already are here.
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[jonathan75]

And sadly they are becoming illegal In China too, since they are gradually phasing in EU type 250 watts law which will make them all motor vehicles there as they already are here.
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Are there no free corners of the earth to which the malign tentacles of Brussels will not reach?! I confidently predict Nigel Farage and Ukip will be elected to run China this time next year, by a landslide. The LibLabCon stooges can laugh but when Nigel is World King we will see who's laughing.

 

[Twangman]

I'm looking to buy a e moped and there seems to be little difference between the high end pedal variety and some of the e mopeds that you need a license for. The I ped lite for example just seems to be a slightly under spec version of the Yamaha EC-03 which also sells around the same price. Most of the e peds being sold on eBay are now offering lithium battery's from 36v 10a to 48w 40a and describe the motors being 250/500 which means you are able to get up most hills.

 

[mechaniker]

Are there no free corners of the earth to which the malign tentacles of Brussels will not reach?!

In fact the pedelec law come from japan and the european-union just copy most part of the japan rules.

In the big city´s of china like shenzhen and guangzhou there is any pedelec forbidden because the government argue that to many crash´s by them and to much thief use the noiseless motors came from the back and grip the handbag of the pedastrian walker´s and can escape very quickly with this over powered e-bike´s

Honestly I doubt that it would be good with no rules and no law because then we would have wild-west e-bike cowboy´s with rude behavior

I would like to have a law that give 500Watt but 25km/h max.-speed but most thing´s we desperate want we don't get.

 

[Twangman]

I sit in the middle when it comes to speed, I think 45kph is to fast for a e bike with regular disk brakes and I have no interest in buying a Sped but 25kph is too slow on main roads the sweet spot for me is 35kph.

 

[flecc]

Are there no free corners of the earth to which the malign tentacles of Brussels will not reach?!

Yes, as Frank says, it was Japan who originated the 250 watt and 25 kph limit on pedelecs, and their power phase down law is far more strict than the EU one.

And of course it's not just China adopting it, the Australians have too, so it looks like becoming some sort of world standard.
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[jonathan75]

their power phase down law is far more strict than the EU one.


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That's very interesting, I haven't heard of that, what is such a law?

 

[flecc]

That's very interesting, I haven't heard of that, what is such a law?

I explained it in an article on the early Panasonic units, here's the extract:

The explanation for the very early phase down is more complex, and it results from Japanese law on electric assist pedal cycles. The Japanese have determined that the maximum power allowable must not exceed the power the rider puts in (1 to 1), and that this should only be fully available within normal cycling speeds. Unfortunately for us, the Japanese have a very different view on cycling speeds to that of UK riders, They regard their common cycling speed as being 15 kph (9.4 mph), and for "sports" riders like our lycra brigade, 24 kph (15 mph), which would raise a laugh from UK club riders who can often average 20 mph for an hour in moderately hilly areas.

Since sports riders don't use electric assist bikes, only the "common" bike's speed is legislated for. Therefore in accordance with that, the (home market) Panasonic design has integral to it the phase down above full assist at 15 kph (9.4 mph) when the bike is in top gear.

But that's not the end of it, for Japanese law prescribes the power phase down slope as well. Since an analogue slope doesn't readily match digital electronic systems working, Panasonic have chosen to have four step downs giving a rough tail off of power corresponding with the legal requirement, which is expressed in Japanese law by this equation:

1 - ( [kph - 15] / 9 ) = assist factor

where kph is the road speed.

Quite simply what this means is the road speed in kph, minus 15 (the 1 to 1 power assist limit), then divided by 9 produces a result which is subtracted from 1.

In a practical example, at 20 kph (12.5 mph), taking 15 from that 20 kph gives us 5. Then that 5 divided by 9 gives 0.55 recurring. To complete the equation we take that 0.55 from 1 to give 0.45 or 45%, and that's the ratio of rider power that the motor is allowed to assist with at 12.5 mph.

At the lower speed of 11 mph (17.6 kph) using the same calculation, 17.6 minus 15 then divided by 9 and taken away from 1 gives 0.71 or 71% of the riders input given as motor assistance.

At the higher speed of 13 mph (20.8 kph), only 36% of rider input is given by the motor.

You can see from that how speeding up from 11 mph to 13 mph by pedalling faster halves the help the motor gives you so making work for yourself.

The EU law only requires the power to phase down before the 25 kph limit, without saying by how much or when the phase down commences.
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[Biggles]

All of this is such a shame. I live part time on my boat and use the ebike to get around and to do longer trips to get the vehicle we have with us.

It's sad that these rules force me now to consider a petrol alternative for longer retrieval missions.

These rules are sort of self defeating. Is there any reason lead acid batteries are not used? Again in China a lot of the evehicles I saw were lead acid, even the converted rikshaws.

If a more power full ebike or scooter were available on the EU roads what licence would be required. Surely a full MC licence would cover.

Is there a home build / conversion forum?

 

[flecc]

Is there any reason lead acid batteries are not used? Again in China a lot of the evehicles I saw were lead acid, even the converted rikshaws.

It's the lead pollution problem since recycling the batteries cannot be guaranteed to be done. Even the Chinese are getting concerned about this.

If a more power full ebike or scooter were available on the EU roads what licence would be required. Surely a full MC licence would cover.

A P1 moped licence or full motorcycle licence cover use of any up to 30 mph moped. Also any car driver who passed their car driving test before 1st February 2001 is automatically qualified.

There will now be two applicable moped licence classes from 1st January 2016. The existing P1 moped licence and a new Q licence for e-bikes up to 1000 watts but still restricted to 15.6 mph.

Is there a home build / conversion forum?

Not as such, either use this forum for legal builds or the UK off-roads, S pedelec & Overseas forum for those outside of EU/UK legality.
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[Kudoscycles]

Boggles and anyone else interested...I have 3 of these Chinese mini moped type e-bikes at Kudos. They have direct drive motors which seem to gather speed once the initial take off is overcome.
I too see hundreds of these bikes in China and often carrying lots of people and/or lots of goods.
The problem is they are crudely finished,i am uncertain that European buyers will accept the basic engineering.
If anyone wants one I will sell for £200 plus vat,they have lithium batteries,the parts alone must be worth more than £240. I cannot put a warranty on the bikes because I have no spares available.
If you want one ring up Kudos direct.
I will try to load up a photo tomorrow.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

The law in China specifies a max assisted speed of 20kph (12.4 mph),this is pretty much ignored but it does exist and Chinese governments have a way of enforcing the law when it suits them.
The problem of these e-bikes is they have too much power,800 watts is the norm,1500 watts is often.
There are over 2000 deaths per annum directly attributable to e-bikes.
There are over 120 million on the road or more accurately on the pavement because they ride everywhere from any direction and cause massive parking pavement congestion,often 4 deep.
A lot are still lead acid batteries,which may last only 6 months and when exhausted get dumped in the river.
There is no registration so when one is finished you dump it where it fails and buy a new one from Tescos China for 1900 RMB,a bit over £200.
In short they are a dangerous nuisance,occasionally you see a bicycle derived e-bike with a lithium battery,usually ridden by a middle class lady,these bikes are similar to our electric bikes,they cost about £500 so are inevitably rare,our Kudos Tempo is similar in style,these bikes seem to be more in harmony with their city usage.
The only reason the Chinese government has not clamped down on them is that it would mean wider car ownership and many Chinese cities are already at gridlock. But the Chinese will I think make ownership more expensive so as to force the population to use the new metro systems and will clamp down on the power and outlaw lead acid batteries.
KudosDave

 

[tongxinpete]

How would anyone qualify for a Q licence & what else would be involved (eg insurance, compulsory helmet, maybe road tax) Also would the 1000w bike be banned from cycle paths? I see the 500 or 1000w motor still limited to 15.6 mph as a good option, as the extra watts would only come into use on hills as motors can only draw about 200w when running on the flat at these kind of speeds (I have actually measured this) The extra amps would help older & semi disabled cyclists when they most need it - without becoming an anti social nuisance running at dangerous speeds on paths etc. I am guessing the 1000W is a peak max limit rather than continuous with a still higher peak! The Q128 motor would fall into this range.
I understand the Chinese have passed an upper weight limit for bikes meaning that SLA batts virtually banned by the back door unless a very light aluminium frame is used. One firm is pushing NiZn 'F' cells as a lower cost alternative, sadly the cycle life is little better than SLA at present - but they are working on this.

 

[danielrlee]

Is there a home build / conversion forum?

Yep. The real innovation happens over at www.endless-sphere.com

 

[flecc]

How would anyone qualify for a Q licence & what else would be involved (eg insurance, compulsory helmet, maybe road tax) Also would the 1000w bike be banned from cycle paths? .

Yes, all the lot, since it is still a moped class so cannot do what bicycles do. VED (road tax) is free though.

I don't know if it's possible to apply for the Q licence yet, it might not come fully into play until January of 2016 or 2017 since these new classes, type approvals and laws are being phased in.
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[tongxinpete]

I wonder if the 'Q' licence would allow the following covered trike to exist
http://www.recumbentjournal.com/views/columns/item/538-major-sports-manufacturer-and-retailer-interested-in-velomobiles.html
I prefer throttles but would be OK with pas as the extra climbing ability would be such a bonus, & then the extra watts could not be misused in any way. The moped class a 'national' category (as is the small roller etc) Wonder if the proposed Q is UK only or EU wide? I can see no reason why the 1000w machine may not use a cycleway, as 15.6 mph is far too slow to hold ones own in serious traffic. It is the old story of e vehicles being dangerous during the transition phase while there are still 3 tonne ICE SUV's to force one off the road. Otherwise a light e trike sitting two side by side powered by a large rear xlyte / MXUS direct single rear motor would be viable. (see the slingshot trike by brettus22 on youtube for inspiration)

 

[flecc]

Wonder if the proposed Q is UK only or EU wide? I can see no reason why the 1000w machine may not use a cycleway, as 15.6 mph is far too slow to hold ones own in serious traffic.

The Q licence or an equivalent may be EU wide since it relates to the Low Powered Moped class in it's latest EU guise, L1e-A.

The existing moped P licence covers class L1e-B, which are the 30 mph mopeds.

Both L1e-A and B are subject to new type approval legislation, it's measures being phased in over the next three years, commencing 1st January 2016.

Whether access to cycle paths etc is permitted is a matter for local legislation in each country.
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[tongxinpete]

Some info re. L1e-A & B https://www.raivereniging.nl/ecm/?id=workspace://SpacesStore/4ee4a9c0-3b5a-48f7-9346-ce670f4a0e43

Seems the 1000w is a continuous rating even in A, also in A there is no provision for a number plate (but is needed in B). If I understand correctly a throttle is allowable on the L1e-A. Anyway if it happens a great step forward for the environment etc. Sadly unlike the UK the Netherlands are a cyclist's heaven with many dedicated cycleways etc. I do not see particular requirements for who may ride, but would guess min age 18, if only to prevent the tearing up of school playing fields.