Cheap batteries.
- Thread starter onmebike
- Start date
Well, I tested the water for you. Placed the order, paid the money, 12hrs later cancelled to see if I got the refund and I did, so what's to fear?
Buyer has 20 days to pay from date of order. Seller has 25 days to ship or order is automatically cancelled. Seller doesn't get paid until you receive order. Shipping must be by trackable method.
So, what can go wrong? The only things I can forsee are, seller never ships because they can't supply at advertised price or item is substandard in which case you can return. In either case you get a refund.
By all means carry on paying through the nose at hugely inflated UK prices if thats what you prefer.
Before anyone points out the possibility of being charged VAT/Import duty which still wouldn't make the item expensive. I've never been charged either in over 500 transactions from China, why? I don't know, but its a fact.
Buyer has 20 days to pay from date of order. Seller has 25 days to ship or order is automatically cancelled. Seller doesn't get paid until you receive order. Shipping must be by trackable method.
So, what can go wrong? The only things I can forsee are, seller never ships because they can't supply at advertised price or item is substandard in which case you can return. In either case you get a refund.
By all means carry on paying through the nose at hugely inflated UK prices if thats what you prefer.
Before anyone points out the possibility of being charged VAT/Import duty which still wouldn't make the item expensive. I've never been charged either in over 500 transactions from China, why? I don't know, but its a fact.
The value of a cheap battery depends on how long it lasts, and that is dependent on two things. The first is obviously the construction quality of the cells and any electronics, and of course a low level of quality control is inevitable on products made down to a price,
The second not so commonly realised is the motor power to cell discharge capability ratio. The discharge capability won't be especially high on a cheap battery which will of necessity be using older technology, but is likely to be more than adequate on a lowish powered bike, thus enabling the battery to last for a long time.
However, use the same battery on one of the highest powered models, like an eZee Forza for example, and it could fail very early due to the chemical stresses of excess discharge.
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The second not so commonly realised is the motor power to cell discharge capability ratio. The discharge capability won't be especially high on a cheap battery which will of necessity be using older technology, but is likely to be more than adequate on a lowish powered bike, thus enabling the battery to last for a long time.
However, use the same battery on one of the highest powered models, like an eZee Forza for example, and it could fail very early due to the chemical stresses of excess discharge.
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[QUOTE=flecc;82219]The value of a cheap battery depends on how long it lasts, and that is dependent on two things. The first is obviously the construction quality of the cells and any electronics, and of course a low level of quality control is inevitable on products made down to a price
All agreed to a certain extent Flecc but I think what Onmebike( and me to a certain extent) was saying was that like a lot of things in life now days there can be a vast difference in cost for sometimes a very similar product.
I refused to pay £115 for a new battery for my pro Canon camera marketed by Canon and purchased a £15 version from a reputable on line dealer after reading decent reviews and bugger me under the top label on the cheap battery was the identical part number etc. Another case of being made on the same production line??? what ever after setting up the battery in the usual way I sat and flattened an original and the cheap battery using the high speed motor drive and guess what! the cheap battery managed 50% more shots. So! I placed both batteries in an air tight box and stuck them in the freezer for an hour thinking that maybe that is where the cheap battery would fall down and again the results were like before.
I`m no fool and realise that it is buyer beware and you can get your fingers burnt sometimes but with the majority of products being made or assembled in China nowdays it isn`t quite like it used to be. Of course sometimes you must ask yourself if it is right to purchase what is obviously a clone or copy or just another manufacturer but I know that things like brake pads and other consumables from the likes of Euro car parts have always worked perfectly for me at a fraction of the same part from the main dealer (sometimes even the same make)
You pays your money etc!!!!
All agreed to a certain extent Flecc but I think what Onmebike( and me to a certain extent) was saying was that like a lot of things in life now days there can be a vast difference in cost for sometimes a very similar product.
I refused to pay £115 for a new battery for my pro Canon camera marketed by Canon and purchased a £15 version from a reputable on line dealer after reading decent reviews and bugger me under the top label on the cheap battery was the identical part number etc. Another case of being made on the same production line??? what ever after setting up the battery in the usual way I sat and flattened an original and the cheap battery using the high speed motor drive and guess what! the cheap battery managed 50% more shots. So! I placed both batteries in an air tight box and stuck them in the freezer for an hour thinking that maybe that is where the cheap battery would fall down and again the results were like before.
I`m no fool and realise that it is buyer beware and you can get your fingers burnt sometimes but with the majority of products being made or assembled in China nowdays it isn`t quite like it used to be. Of course sometimes you must ask yourself if it is right to purchase what is obviously a clone or copy or just another manufacturer but I know that things like brake pads and other consumables from the likes of Euro car parts have always worked perfectly for me at a fraction of the same part from the main dealer (sometimes even the same make)
You pays your money etc!!!!
The value in any battery depends on how long they last and I agree quality is everything, but price is no guarantee of quality. In this particular case the technology is older Li-ion which may explain the price. Maybe manufacturers are clearing stocks for the newer technologies.
It may be that the seller has access to stocks of batteries at little cost to themselve's, they may even work for the manufacturer and get preferential rates. Many businesses in China seem to be listed under address's in run down blocks of flats and are probably a side line for factory workers to subsidise low pay, thats not to say they're all unreliable or crooks.
I'm not sure I understand the comments regarding battery power? If the battery specs confirm their suitability they're generally up to the job or get returned under warranty. Okay, not so easy when purchased from China but thats the chance you take to save a considerable amount of money.
Looking at the 50cycles site the eZee range, forza and forte are listed as 250w, no more powerful than most other ebike's. I also note they've been discontinued for reliability and supplier issues.
As already stated, price is no guarantee of quality and name's are applied by the retailer in many cases. Most things appear to come into this country from China unlabelled and unassembled, unless prior arrangments have been made with the manufacturer.
As this site and many others I've posted has shown, similarities to top of the range bikes can be seen in the cheapest bike's available from China. JiaBao High Quality Electric Bikes(EBIKE)| Electric bicycles | Electric mountain bikes Manufacturers,Factory,Supplier, Exporter--JIABAO E-Vehicle Co.,Ltd. and its pretty obvious all bar several originate from the same few factory's such as Ryaca and China beyond etc.
My experience's buying from China have up to now been first rate.
Agreed, a very large part of the price of the top batteries is not in content but in recovery of the high research costs of the later types. Of course the benefit of those is often essential with the most powerful motors.
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This old red chestnut again, I thought we were long past it.
Power ratings like 200 watts and 250 watts are almost meaningless legal niceties, they are not in any way whatsoever an indication of actual motor power. They are manufacturer produced indications of average power used to suit the law, the same motor often differently labelled to suit each country's legislation.
For example, one of the lowest powered bikes, the Powacycle Salisbury has one of the lowest actual powers at a little over 300 watts peak, the eZee Forza/Torq etc among the highest powered at well over 700 watts peak. These so called peak powers are actually continuously usable, not as some seem to think, only good for a few seconds. The true very short term peaks are much higher, 1000 watts peak measured by more than one of us on the eZee Torq 1 motor.
The average for the mainstream bikes is about 400 to 450 watts, some rather higher powered ones like Wisper at around 500 to 550 watts, while nominal 200 watt Heinzmann and older Powabyke are at the 600 to 700 watts peak power mark.
Regarding the 50cycles view, they separated from eZee in an acrimonious trade dispute so are hardly impartial. The current agents are Onbike and many satisfied owners like me (two 2006 eZee models from new) have a rather different view.
In practice, e-bike battery prices are an indication of quality and capability. I looked at the site you linked to and all the bikes use older tech batteries from cheaper suppliers who have no research costs to recover.
Batteries don't have power as such, they have a discharge rate capability. A high power motor might demand maximum rates of 30 amperes, so using it with battery that can only give 20 amps before suffering chemical stress leads to short battery life. The older technologies cannot give the same rates as the later compound cathode types.
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On a lighter note, if you look in the same store at the Nokia phone batteries, you can buy 100 for a reasonable price, but look at the delivery cost
Quantity 100:
The minimum order for this product is 100 pieces
pieces
Shipping Cost:
US $22,290.03 to United Kingdom Via EMS
Total Price:
$3.92 x 100 + $22,290.03 = US $22,682.03
That's $226 for a phone battery
Quantity 100:
The minimum order for this product is 100 pieces
pieces
Shipping Cost:
US $22,290.03 to United Kingdom Via EMS
Total Price:
$3.92 x 100 + $22,290.03 = US $22,682.03
That's $226 for a phone battery
In practice, e-bike battery prices are an indication of quality and capability. I looked at the site you linked to and all the bikes use older tech batteries from cheaper suppliers who have no research costs to recover.
Batteries don't have power as such, they have a discharge rate capability. A high power motor might demand maximum rates of 30 amperes, so using it with battery that can only give 20 amps before suffering chemical stress leads to short battery life. The older technologies cannot give the same rates as the later compound cathode types.
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Thats strange because Oldtimer and I both noticed the fact they are now offering the choice of two technologies, Li-ion or Lifepo4.
Despite the fact the site linked to was among the cheaper suppliers, many of their bikes are using aluminium frame's[6061] and suzhou bafang 8fun motors as used on some of the more expensive bikes, add to this reasonable quality components and how much better can a bike really get? The high prices aren't warranted in my humble opinion.
30amp continuous discharge doesn't appear extreme, thats around the capability of high quality sub-c Ni-cd's. I'm currently using 30c continuous rated Li-po's in several model airplanes. The motors obviously haven't the torque of ebike motors but produce extremely high rpm.
Regarding prices in China, I recently purchased rechargeable razors that retail in the UK for £30+ for $5.00 each direct from the manufacturer, admittedly I had to buy a minimum of 12 but that's one example of the savings that can be had.
I suppose I put the emphasis on price rather than quality, 2 or 3 for the price of one seems the better option, but I understand and appreciate your opinion.
Batteries don't have power as such, they have a discharge rate capability. A high power motor might demand maximum rates of 30 amperes, so using it with battery that can only give 20 amps before suffering chemical stress leads to short battery life. The older technologies cannot give the same rates as the later compound cathode types.
.[/QUOTE]
Thats strange because Oldtimer and I both noticed the fact they are now offering the choice of two technologies, Li-ion or Lifepo4.
Despite the fact the site linked to was among the cheaper suppliers, many of their bikes are using aluminium frame's[6061] and suzhou bafang 8fun motors as used on some of the more expensive bikes, add to this reasonable quality components and how much better can a bike really get? The high prices aren't warranted in my humble opinion.
30amp continuous discharge doesn't appear extreme, thats around the capability of high quality sub-c Ni-cd's. I'm currently using 30c continuous rated Li-po's in several model airplanes. The motors obviously haven't the torque of ebike motors but produce extremely high rpm.
Regarding prices in China, I recently purchased rechargeable razors that retail in the UK for £30+ for $5.00 each direct from the manufacturer, admittedly I had to buy a minimum of 12 but that's one example of the savings that can be had.
I suppose I put the emphasis on price rather than quality, 2 or 3 for the price of one seems the better option, but I understand and appreciate your opinion.
The technology may appear the same, but that's superficial. The cheaper batteries don't use the latest patented compound cathodes, new improved ones of which are appearing all the time out of research. It's the simple cobalt or manganese cathodes that have caused all the failures in the past
Again very different things. Any quality NiCad has virtually no limit on discharge rate, something untrue of any lithium battery. In any case, NiCad production is illegal now. The small Li-po's used in the model world are not the same thing as those we call Li-polymer in the e-bike world. The latter have very severely limited discharge rates and 30 amps or more continuous is unusual and only possible with reasonable life in the more sophisticated ones. It's the simple cathode ones that have failed when called upon to do that originally, as I know only too well having got through three in ten months on a powerful eZee bike
Just because something works in the intermittent use tool world or the RC model world does not mean it will translate into e-bike use, as a number of model enthusiasts have already found out. The same is true of the e-car world, where these "wonder" lithium batteries have failed to perform as expected and delayed model launches for years. The only two sensible ones launched with some degree confidence, the Think and Smart models, have abandoned lithium and are using sodium "salt" batteries instead, not something which can be used on e-bikes unfortunately.
Mitsubishi have launched their small e-car with lithium, but at the crazy price of £38,000,while Tesla top that at £70,000 for their lithium batteried two seater. Now those really are crazy prices, which probably reflect an expectation of some battery failures.
As I said previously, the high prices of the best batteries do not reflect the content and in that sense I agree with you. In part they result from the manufacturers having to recover the research costs, in part they result from having import duties, importer margins and VAT added. Comparing them with directly bought cheaper production batteries bought individually is unreasonable, since they obviously escape much of those costs.
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So you have just bought your e-bike, is it sensible to buy a few batteries while the bike is current? Or is there a limit as to how long you can store a battery for, i do not mean just leave in a drawer but say charging it once a month but keeping it as a spare. Referring to Lithium Ion batteries.
Generally not with lithium batteries since they deteriorate even if not in use. Suppliers take care to keep stocks fairly low and fresh.
They can be stored long term if with only 20 to 40% charge and kept close to zero degrees C, which limits loss to about 2% capacity per annum, but at room temperatures they can lose as much as 33% per annum. Therefore try to live with one battery if at all possible.
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Flecc help me out with this one because I think onmebike is referring to the same RC batteries I use on my Peugeot. They are very well suited to E-Bike use capable of sustaining very high discharge rates over extended time...in fact they are probably overkill as discharge rates rarely will be above 3C and yet they are capable of 30C. Many many guys on ES are using them without issues once they are packaged up and mated with a suitable BMS like the ones from TPPacks
Not sure NRG, I only know that some knowledgeable guys have had little luck with RC li-po cells. Of course it may be the way they were using them, BMS etc. Let us know over time and mileage though, since it's how long they last which is the key to success of course.
What puzzles me most is the way battery manufacturers have struggled to cope with lithium and e-bike needs over the last four years, even facing litigation, while so many claims have been made for A123 and RC li-po. It may be a cost issue as I've said elsewhere, there's usually a huge difference in final price between a home build and a manufacturer battery carrying import duties, importer margins and VAT, a combination which can multiply the basic price by as much as two to three times.
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What puzzles me most is the way battery manufacturers have struggled to cope with lithium and e-bike needs over the last four years, even facing litigation, while so many claims have been made for A123 and RC li-po. It may be a cost issue as I've said elsewhere, there's usually a huge difference in final price between a home build and a manufacturer battery carrying import duties, importer margins and VAT, a combination which can multiply the basic price by as much as two to three times.
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with regard to duty, in todays connected multicultural world, its not at all an odd concept that middle aged and older men in the UK, China and other nations might be sending each other "gifts" of batteries, motors, wheels and other curious things across the Pacific Ocean - making only a modest profit to cover expenses.
Despite the perceived decline in engineering skills, you can go anywhere from Catford to Cromer to Kuala Lumpur or Shenzen and find an "old uncle" (and "Auntie" as well, more so in East Asian countries!) working away in a shed or workshop on some sort of pet project
So HMRC and other similar tax authorities in the EU aren't particularly fussed over one or two batteries being sold without duty being paid for hobby purposes. However as soon as it becomes a large scale profit-making enterprise producing road-going vehicles in some number any tax authority anywhere in the world is going to want their bit...
Despite the perceived decline in engineering skills, you can go anywhere from Catford to Cromer to Kuala Lumpur or Shenzen and find an "old uncle" (and "Auntie" as well, more so in East Asian countries!) working away in a shed or workshop on some sort of pet project
So HMRC and other similar tax authorities in the EU aren't particularly fussed over one or two batteries being sold without duty being paid for hobby purposes. However as soon as it becomes a large scale profit-making enterprise producing road-going vehicles in some number any tax authority anywhere in the world is going to want their bit...
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Regarding HM customs. Having made many purchases from China without ever paying duty or vat, even on items costing £200+. I have to wonder if there's some kind of trade agreement or similar going on, or is it simply the way the vendors word their shipping documents?
I've often tracked items through UK customs and expected to pay, but its never happended.
I've often tracked items through UK customs and expected to pay, but its never happended.
I'm sure there's no agreement. For a number of years individual batteries and chargers etc from the USA also used to be ignored by customs, coming in unfettered. That's suddenly changed now, they've cracked down on that route and many are telling me how they've been caught. Expensive too, the Royal Mail having to collect the duty before release and then charging their own lump on top for carrying that out, typically a £13 duty collect charge on top for a small item. Something like this could easily happen on the Oriental routes if they get individually used enough to be noticed.
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