Changes in S pedelecs laws

[SRS]

Depends whether you live in a hilly area I should think. I have to work fairly hard on my Kalkhoff to keep up a good speed. But there is almost no flat at all where I live and I’m either going up or down all the time. It’s just variation of gradient really. It can pedal past the 17mph cut out on the few flat bits okay when I go down in the river valley though. Once the heavy mother is up and going it rolls pretty well.

You are right John. Flat round here,at least it is on my commute. A hilly area would no doubt keep you pretty fit on a standard Bosch.

 

[Rohloffboy]

Hi I am new to this forum, so have not read that much, but I am thinking of getting a Pedelec to do the 16 mile commute to work in Manchester.

I would rather go for an "S" Pedelec, as it is road all the way into town and back.

Having read that "S" Pedelecs could become legal to use in the UK from 2017, my thoughts are to hang on until this time.

I understand that a cycle helmet will be mandatory, although would not want to have a motorbike type helmet.

Insurance and Small Reg Plate would not be an issue.

Is it the case that in Germany that a reg cycle helmet is mandatory, and not a motorbike type helmet, what are the chances of UK following suite.

 

[soundwave]

just get a dongle then you have a s pedelec

can be removed in 2 seconds. i dont even take mine of and no problems from police.

 

[flecc]

Is it the case that in Germany that a reg cycle helmet is mandatory, and not a motorbike type helmet, what are the chances of UK following suite.

I understand that in Germany that cycle helmets are mandatory for S class use and I believe it's the same in The Netherlands. France intends to follow in 2017. If the UK does allow S pedelecs I've little doubt they would also follow the same pattern, but I'm not confident they will allow them. The DfT attitude to high speed e-bikes has been very negative when the matter has been raised previously.
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

There are nice s-pedelec helmets on the market. By nice I mean offering some protection, being comfortable and not looking like you have put an upturned egg basket on your head...

Having a few km under my belt what is the show stopper for me for the moment is s-pedelec range. If you are doing a fast 30 km commute they are ideal but the vanilla pedelec is a better tool for long range travels.

Cheaper, larger capacity batteries will of course fix the range problem eventually.

 

[soundwave]

 

[Rohloffboy]

Thanks for the info, I guessed the UK might be able to veto any decision on "S" Pedelecs, come 2017.

I do hope commense prevails, as making "S" Pedelecs legal in the UK will give a major boost to cycle shops, and get folk like me commuting to work on a "S" Pedelec instead of using the car, as it would probably prove a faster way to get to work.

Just a case of waiting until 2017 to see what happens, before I order my Kalkhoff Integrale S11 !.

 

[soundwave]

go buy 1 now no one will pull you over on it.

https://www.e-bikeshop.co.uk/Electric-Bikes-UK-Dealer/Moustache-Dimanche-Speed-2015

will also sell you a dongle for 150 quid that does fook all and do not get it from 50 cycles as going down the tip

 

[soundwave]

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

go buy 1 now no one will pull you over on it.

Just to add some balance to this very very flipant attitude.

Whilst, yes chances are you won't get pulled over. However you will be riding what's legally classed as a motorbike on the public roads, so should you be involved in any accident, you'll be caught riding an illegal vehicle with no tax, insurance or MOT. So the consequences are potentially very severe, points on license and even more worrying is the liability issues. Please check it out before you listen to some on here, who just say "you won't be caught", being caught it really the least of the potential problems.

Its also worth you actually trying your commute on a road legal eBike. Its all the accelerating from 0 - 15mph where you save the time, and you'll get this with a legal eBike. If you're commuting in a city like Manchester (I've done it for years) even the car traffic doesn't move at 30! You'll be loads faster by legal eBike than car, with out the need to risk your house by riding an illegal one.

 

[soundwave]

get it from ebike shop then as can do warranty with there dongles

no other uk dealer can? can you ktm bikes fit dongles and honer bosch warranty?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

get it from ebike shop then as can do warranty with there dongles

no other uk dealer can? can you ktm bikes fit dongles and honer bosch warranty?

I see you've totally ignored all the points about liability risk and the important issues about riding illegal vehicles on the road and and now just focusing on warranty.

We don't sell to the public.... we're not a shop.

I'm not sure how good your understanding of the warranty system is, but with Bosch for instance.

Customer buys bike from dealer... if there is a failure with Bosch drive, dealer contacts Bosch to sort it out. You'll notice that at no point in this statement do I mention the brand, because the brand of bike isn't relevant. At no point is the brand of bike involved in a Bosch warranty.

Its between the customer and the shop they bought it from and then Bosch sort it.

So, what eBike shop are doing is saying they will honour the warranty, which they can of course say, because your warranty is with them, and theirs is with Bosch. However Bosch say they won't support any bike thats been dongled. So I suspect what will happen is that if / when a Bosch drive fails on a bike that has been bought from eBike shop he'll pay to fix it himself, rather than go back to Bosch... or hope they don't notice the bike its from has been dongled. Any dealer can do this. Its only eBike shop who make such a song and dance about selling bikes that aren't CE certified, and aren't legally able to be used in the UK.

Its for this reason we don't supply that store, we don't want KTMs sold in this manner as its highly irresponsible selling, and doesn't make clear to the customer what risks using the products being sold make customers liable for. Its a short term, dangerous strategy that most eBike businesses in the UK don't approve of, and don't want to risk their customers and their business for.. as its just making a fast buck out of an generally uneducated customer base.

 

[Rohloffboy]

Yep, I will be wanting to keep legal, so if in 2017 "S" Pedelec does not become legal in UK like they are in Germany, I will either stick with my Rohloff equipped bike, or add a UK legal Pedelec to the stable.

My intention is to buy a Kalkhoff Integrale S11 ("S" Pedelec) if they become legal or Kalkhoff Integrale 8 Ltd if they don't.

Brother has lived in Germany for the last 25 years, so that's were I will be going to buy one as long
as the € stays weak against the £, looked at prices and I can save at least £500 compared to
buying in the UK.

 

[RobF]

I agree with KTM Col that the S power may not make that much difference to the time a commute takes in Manchester.

Acceleration from the many stops is an important factor, and a legal ebike will give you that.

For not much more than the price of your hub, you could get a fully legal Bosch bike.

This one has the performance - but still legal - motor, which will accelerate slightly faster than a standard one.

http://www.mhw-bike.com/ghost-teru-4-white-cyan-green-black-2015-2812

 

[Rohloffboy]

Thank's for the link RobF nice bike that and I definitely want to go for the Bosch Crank Drive, I the the fact that it uses isis fitting.

Would not get a bike with Derailure, a bit to last century for me, got the Rohloff Hub new back in 2004 £450 then, and it runs sweeter now than it has ever done.

My scruf bike has a SRAM Spectro P7 Hub, which is fine and has a Hub brake, got that on CTW scheme about 15 years back and is still going strong as well.

I don't need suspension forks, but do need rear rack.

All work in progress and I have got until 2017 to find the right bike for me.

 

[RobF]

I the the fact that it uses isis fitting.

I think you are one of the few who does.

Don't get me wrong, I have two Bosch bikes.

No problems with Isis so far.

As a general point, Isis is a small diameter bearing for a bottom bracket.

This means it has to work harder, leading to fears over longevity.

It's never really caught on.

At least it's a standard bike component, so presumably can be replaced even if it's buried inside a motor.

My mate Chris the bike mechanic is a fan of Hollowtech for ordinary alloy framed mountain bikes.

He's seen plenty of problems with BB30 press fit on road bikes.

His latest build for himself - a steel frame mountain bike - will have an old-fashioned square taper

Reliable, reasonably long lasting, and cheap as chips to replace.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

At least it's a standard bike component, so presumably can be replaced even if it's buried inside a motor.
.

That would be nice, but it's only the spline that's ISIS. The spindle is a special Bosch part. If you damage it, you'd need a new motor. The bearings can be replaced if you're a good mechanic and if you can get them. One of them is non-standard. You won't be able to get it from Bosch as a spare part.

 

[Rohloffboy]

Yep, I guessed that it was just the Spline that was isis, on both my pedal bikes I have isis BB, bought when the bearing maker SKF was doing them, at the time they were the best on the market, with radical bearing design an 10 year warranty!

Needles to say in over 15 years never had an issue with my SKF BB's they were built to last unlike there modern day counter parts FSA and Strong etc.

Again Square Taper is a bit last century, I know Yamaha use it on there Crank Drive motors, far better to use isis, it's proven and no patent to worry about for the manufacturer.

 

[EddiePJ]

Its a short term, dangerous strategy that most eBike businesses in the UK don't approve of, and don't want to risk their customers and their business for.. as its just making a fast buck out of an generally uneducated customer base.

Being blunt, I'm pretty fecked off with the daily mention that dongles get scattered throughout seemingly every thread on here (Soundwave)

I'm fecked off, because dongles are hitting a nail firmly into the coffin of my hobby.

You might not realise this Soundwave, but amongst others you are doing the off road side of e-bike use no favours at all.

Last year I had a very in-depth conversation with Wiggle events over the use of e-mtb's. The end result was that the organisers were tolerating them, but anyone found to be using a dongle, would be dealt with appropriately, and the use of e-mtb's would be questioned.
I've only completed two Wiggle events this year, and have kept away from drawing any attention to the bike and myself.

At the Evans Ride It event a couple of weeks ago, when I stopped at the food stop, one of the event organisers was there. I spent a pleasant 15mins or so talking to him, then he asked what bike that I was riding. I went on to explain that it was an e-mtb, and the tone of conversation instantly changed. He wanted to see the bike, and I was asked loads of questions, all of which very polite, wrote my entrance number down, then went on to explain that within the previous week, they as a company, had been having telephone conversations about the very subject of e-mtb's and more specifically, e-mtb's fitted with dongles. He was telling me that they don't have the resources to police these events to stop people using dongles, so there may be a blanket ban on their use. All this started because a pedal mtb rider had raised concerns. I guess that my rider number was taken in order to check my ride time.

I was also talking a day or so ago to someone who had made a recent visit to a trail centre in Wales recently, and knowing my interest in e-mtb's, the lad got talking to someone on the uplift about e-mtb's. Again because of dongles, and not being able to police the use of them, e-mtb's are probably going to be facing bleak future.
I've said it often enough that dongles aren't required for off road use, and that is with me having sole permitted access to the best part of 1,000 acres of land to ride on, with no public rights of way. Thanks to those that are using e-mtb's fitted with dongles in places that utilise public access, e-mtb users as whole could be facing a bleak future where less and less places will be openly available to ride.
If e-mtb's are going to stopped from riding at organised events and bike parks, for all I know it could just be a matter of time before they get banned from other places as well. I know that I'm not happy about the thought of that one.

 

[soundwave]

ed i dont plan on entering in any event on my bike as im just not interested in any of that tbh.

if i was and for off road comp id have got a different bike anyway and would not even need a dongle on it and blast round at 60mph


i could also get a 750w mid drive kit and use that with no dongle and be faster than my bike anyway for a lot less than my bike.

i mean law wise how many ppl on here has a bike with more than a 250w motor lots id say from the posts i have seen since i joined and far faster than my bike will ever go and have throttles too.

if we went by the law regarding posting on here and what is and is not legal over half the forum would be banned.