Change UK law to allow 30mph ebikes

[trevor brooker]

Having owned & used a 250w ebike for 5 years I have spent a lot of time thinking about my safety when cycling. If the government could be persuaded to raise the speed limit this would increase the safety and could
Halve rush hour traffic congestion
Halve the air pollution from peak time traffic congestion
Improve the health of seven million people
Sustainable reduction in road traffic accidents.
No initial or ongoing Government funding required.

see my webpage for full details & reference studies.
http://www.boughtonmorris.uwclub.net/ebike30mph.html

 

[Deleted member 4366]

But they already do allow 30mph electric bikes. You can buy one today and use it on the road. They're vehicle class moped. The Stromer ST2 is a nice example.

 

[flecc]

We've covered this subject many, many times, but always with the same conclusions.

The key one is that UK governments are only prepared to discuss speed limit reductions, our roads bearing witness to this. Over very large areas now 60 mph zones have all but disappeared, the former 50 limit is defunct, and reduction from 60 being straight down to 40 or even 30mph.

And in huge swathes of cities and towns we now have 20 mph limits. My own borough, one of the largest in the UK now has the borough wide 20 limit on all but a few major through routes. That alone is a killer for any suggestion that e-bikes could be permitted 30 mph, given that most commuting is in urban areas.

The DfT have voiced fierce opposition to any suggestion of adopting the 28 mph S class of e-bikes, and they aren't alone in that. Germany in the EU had it first in a registered form, but since only the Netherlands have adopted it in a limited form. France thought about it for 2017 but has now not gone ahead and no other EU nation entertains it.

There's also recent legal obstruction like our introduction of the Q group driving licence, and that would apply to any 30 mph e-bike. Such bikes under our laws would also have to be registered, number plated, third party insured and new riders would have to carry L plates and go though the CBT. All riders would have to wear motorcycle approved helmets, that would have to be when 30 mph moped riders have to wear them.

Finally your arguments for adoption of 30 mph don't bear examination. The halvings etc you speak of assume millions of drivers abandon their cars and take up cycling. That's never going to happen in our car culture, even bicycle hating country.
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[trevor brooker]

But they already do allow 30mph electric bikes. You can buy one today and use it on the road. They're vehicle class moped. The Stromer ST2 is a nice example.

Yes but car drivers are not doing so that's why in my webpage I suggested a change of law to protect cyclists. Also using an ebike provides health benefits that you do not achieve with a moped.

 

[trevor brooker]

We've covered this subject many, many times, but always with the same conclusions.

The key one is that UK governments are only prepared to discuss speed limit reductions, our roads bearing witness to this. Over very large areas now 60 mph zones have all but disappeared, the former 50 limit is defunct, and reduction from 60 being straight down to 40 or even 30mph.

And in huge swathes of cities and towns we now have 20 mph limits. My own borough, one of the largest in the UK now has the borough wide 20 limit on all but a few major through routes. That alone is a killer for any suggestion that e-bikes could be permitted 30 mph, given that most commuting is in urban areas.

The DfT have voiced fierce opposition to any suggestion of adopting the 28 mph S class of e-bikes, and they aren't alone in that. Germany in the EU had it first in a registered form, but since only the Netherlands have adopted it in a limited form. France thought about it for 2017 but has now not gone ahead and no other EU nation entertains it.

There's also recent legal obstruction like our introduction of the Q group driving licence, and that would apply to any 30 mph e-bike. Such bikes under our laws would also have to be registered, number plated, third party insured and new riders would have to carry L plates and go though the CBT. All riders would have to wear motorcycle approved helmets, that would have to be when 30 mph moped riders have to wear them.

Finally your arguments for adoption of 30 mph don't bear examination. The halvings etc you speak of assume millions of drivers abandon their cars and take up cycling. That's never going to happen in our car culture, even bicycle hating country.
.

I agree that at present the UK government prefers cars but I am trying to make a case for changing the law

 

[flecc]

I agree that at present the UK government prefers cars but I am trying to make a case for changing the law

As others have been for nearly two decades now, not only without any sign of success but seeing ever diminishing prospects for it.

That's what I've explained to you, it's a dead end with even more obstructions arriving soon.

And as I posted, your case isn't valid, the halvings you speak of being impossible through the use of faster e-bikes.

It's not a question of the government prefering cars. The public overwhelmingly prefer them and a very high proportion of our driving public hate bicycles and cyclists. In those circumstances how do you propose to miraculously convert half the drivers into cyclists?

Our governments have very set policies in this area. For example the promotion of cycling in its present form through improved facilities, the expansion of urban 20 mph limit areas which more closely match car and bicycle speeds, the introduction of urban uncontrolled areas devoid of traffic lights and pavements when all users have to mix, watching out for each other by travelling very slowly, and strict speed limits out of town, often with flow regulated variable speed limits.

Your proposal fits in with almost none of this, so do you really think the government will scrap it's entire roads strategy in favour of one e-bike speed limit increase? I'm sorry to be so harshly negative, but it's important to be realistic in pursuing change of this sort. Since as d8veh pointed out, we already have e-bikes moped registered with all the m/c legalities, the government will see no case for 30 limit e-bikes without those legal restrictions.
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[trevor brooker]

As others have been for nearly two decades now, not only without any sign of success but seeing ever diminishing prospects for it.

That's what I've explained to you, it's a dead end with even more obstructions arriving soon.

And as I posted, your case isn't valid, the halvings you speak of being impossible through the use of faster e-bikes.

It's not a question of the government prefering cars. The public overwhelmingly prefer them and a very high proportion of our driving public hate bicycles and cyclists. In those circumstances how do you propose to miraculously convert half the drivers into cyclists?

Our governments have very set policies in this area. For example the promotion of cycling in its present form through improved facilities, the expansion of urban 20 mph limit areas which more closely match car and bicycle speeds, the introduction of urban uncontrolled areas devoid of traffic lights and pavements when all users have to mix, watching out for each other by travelling very slowly, and strict speed limits out of town, often with flow regulated variable speed limits.

Your proposal fits in with almost none of this, so do you really think the government will scrap it's entire roads strategy in favour of one e-bike speed limit increase? I'm sorry to be so harshly negative, but it's important to be realistic in pursuing change of this sort. Since as d8veh pointed out, we already have e-bikes moped registered with all the m/c legalities, the government will see no case for 30 limit e-bikes without those legal restrictions.
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No I agree that you have made good constructive criticism.
I do not believe that "very high proportion of our driving public hate bicycles and cyclists".
I certainly encounter a lot of inconsiderate car drivers, but I felt the financial & health benefits (if properly explained) would encourage a large number of car commuters to switch.
Nor do I see that "Your proposal fits in with almost none of this" as the ebike would simply follow the speed limits.
what I was trying to achieve is switching from cars to ebikes, and looking at the hurdles the biggest was safety, which can be eliminated by removing the difference in speed (see Solomon Curve) and providing a legislative space around bikes, by changing the highway code rule 163 from "give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car" which is impossible to prove to -you can only overtake a cycle if your vehicle is not in the same carriageway, and "Move back to the left as soon as you can but do not cut in" with -allow a minimum of 20 meters before moving back to the left. This can be enforced by the vehicle registration number being readable below 20 meters and recorded by bikecams.

 

[Wicky]

What do you envisage the consequences in your scheme of things with the widespread use of unrestricted 30mph capable e-bikes of a moped class that are hard to differentiate to the naked eye from conventional bikes sharing joint cycle paths with pedestrians?

 

[trevor brooker]

What do you envisage the consequences in your scheme of things with the widespread use of unrestricted 30mph capable e-bikes of a moped class that are hard to differentiate to the naked eye from conventional bikes sharing joint cycle paths with pedestrians?

If that happened - bedlam - but as per my webpage what I proposed was that fast ebikes must be visually different from cycles. I would suggest an upsides down flashing illuminated warning triangle the width of the bike - front & back.
Also fast ebike would be limited to roads, as any vehicles with different speeds increase the risk of an accident

 

[Deleted member 4366]

To encourage cycling, the authorities have to make it more difficult and unpleasant to use cars. That means taking away the parking places, making the roads narrower for bigger cycle lanes, speed restrictions, increased charges (like congestion zone) and other creative solutions.

When it becomes too difficult, expensive or just plain unpleasant to use a car, people will start finding other solutions.

I look forward to the day when we can all ride around in these:

 

[flecc]

No I agree that you have made good constructive criticism.
I do not believe that "very high proportion of our driving public hate bicycles and cyclists".
I certainly encounter a lot of inconsiderate car drivers, but I felt the financial & health benefits (if properly explained) would encourage a large number of car commuters to switch.
Nor do I see that "Your proposal fits in with almost none of this" as the ebike would simply follow the speed limits.
what I was trying to achieve is switching from cars to ebikes, and looking at the hurdles the biggest was safety, which can be eliminated by removing the difference in speed (see Solomon Curve) and providing a legislative space around bikes, by changing the highway code rule 163 from "give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car" which is impossible to prove to -you can only overtake a cycle if your vehicle is not in the same carriageway, and "Move back to the left as soon as you can but do not cut in" with -allow a minimum of 20 meters before moving back to the left. This can be enforced by the vehicle registration number being readable below 20 meters and recorded by bikecams.

I'm not personally opposed to much of what you want, but you are being hopelessly unrealistic:

1) When what you propose is already permitted with suitable bikes available as d8veh pointed out, albeit registered with m/c restrictions, why would a government even consider change? I doubt the DfT would even understand why you are asking.

2) Your "I felt the financial & health benefits (if properly explained) would encourage a large number of car commuters to switch." is what government and other have been trying to do for decades, without any result. Everyone already knows that cycling would be healthier and much cheaper than driving, it's obvious even to the dumbest and they've all seen and heard the propaganda. But they also know the many disadvantages and want none of them.

3) Matching traffic speeds by increasing bike speed is the opposite of government policy. Their two part policy is separating bicycles from motor vehicles where possible or reducing motor vehicle speeds to the common 20mph bike speed. In other words, once again they are gradually doing what you want, but approaching it from a different direction.

Anyway, I wish you luck, by all means campaign but don't be surprised when, like all your predecessors and the e-bike trade, you get absolutely nowhere.

As said, it's already permitted, so where is the problem?
.

 

[flecc]

To encourage cycling, the authorities have to make it more difficult and unpleasant to use cars. That means taking away the parking places, making the roads narrower for bigger cycle lanes, speed restrictions, increased charges (like congestion zone) and other creative solutions.

Such pro-cycling policies have been already happening in London and some other places for years now, and they'll spread as I've been trying to explain to Trevor.

That's the way things will progress for cycling and against most cars, though cars capable of running on e-power only will continue to get favourable treatment.
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[flecc]

Also using an ebike provides health benefits that you do not achieve with a moped.

In this reply to d8veh you've misunderstood, he is speaking about a type of e-bike, not a moped, but which is permitted under moped law. Stromer and Kalkhoff are currently available in the UK but there are many other makes that could be here.

Here's one of the Kalkhoffs, the Integrale i11, note the rear number plate bracket and the fact that it is very much a bicycle, assisted to 28mph:

And here's a Stromer ST2:

 

[trevor brooker]

I'm not personally opposed to much of what you want, but you are being hopelessly unrealistic:

1) When what you propose is already permitted with suitable bikes available as d8veh pointed out, albeit registered with m/c restrictions, why would a government even consider change? I doubt the DfT would even understand why you are asking.

2) Your "I felt the financial & health benefits (if properly explained) would encourage a large number of car commuters to switch." is what government and other have been trying to do for decades, without any result. Everyone already knows that cycling would be healthier and much cheaper than driving, it's obvious even to the dumbest and they've all seen and heard the propaganda. But they also know the many disadvantages and want none of them.

3) Matching traffic speeds by increasing bike speed is the opposite of government policy. Their two part policy is separating bicycles from motor vehicles where possible or reducing motor vehicle speeds to the common 20mph bike speed. In other words, once again they are gradually doing what you want, but approaching it from a different direction.

Anyway, I wish you luck, by all means campaign but don't be surprised when, like all your predecessors and the e-bike trade, you get absolutely nowhere.

As said, it's already permitted, so where is the problem?
.

I agree that the best solution would be separating cars from bikes & reducing to 20mph but I do not believe that the cash is available, so I thought of an alternative that could be implemented now with no cost to government.

 

[flecc]

I agree that the best solution would be separating cars from bikes & reducing to 20mph but I do not believe that the cash is available, so I thought of an alternative that could be implemented now with no cost to government.

Yes I agree that progress is very slow, like most advancement on our country!

Have a look at my previous post explaining about what is available now, you may not have appreciated this.
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[trevor brooker]

In this reply to d8veh you've misunderstood, he is speaking about a type of e-bike, not a moped, but which is permitted under moped law. Stromer and Kalkhoff are currently available in the UK but there are many other makes that could be here.

Here's one of the Kalkhoffs, the Integrale i11, note the rear number plate bracket and the fact that it is very much a bicycle, assisted to 28mph:

Lovely looking but as it does not look like a moped car drivers will treat it like a bike
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369847815000662

 

[flecc]

Lovely looking but as it does not look like a moped car drivers will treat it like a bike
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369847815000662

Now you are puzzling me, do you wan't 30 mph bikes or not?

If you do, of course drivers will see them as bikes.
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[trevor brooker]

In this reply to d8veh you've misunderstood, he is speaking about a type of e-bike, not a moped, but which is permitted under moped law. Stromer and Kalkhoff are currently available in the UK but there are many other makes that could be here.

Here's one of the Kalkhoffs, the Integrale i11, note the rear number plate bracket and the fact that it is very much a bicycle, assisted to 28mph:

And here's a Stromer ST2:

Without a change to protect vulnerable road users, it only ever be a minority who will be prepared to ride in traffic

 

[trevor brooker]

Now you are puzzling me, do you wan't 30 mph bikes or not?

If you do, of course drivers will see them as bikes.
.

What I would wish is an ebike able to keep up with urban traffic. At present for lots of the country that means 30mph, but without other changes that would be dangerous. 1- change legislation to protect cyclists - see previous posts 2-change visual impact to differentiate fast ebikes - see previous posts

 

[flecc]

What I would wish is an ebike able to keep up with urban traffic. At present for lots of the country that means 30mph, but without other changes that would be dangerous. 1- change legislation to protect cyclists - see previous posts 2-change visual impact to differentiate fast ebikes - see previous posts

Well such e-bikes are already available, so mainly what you want is those additional laws, the first for all cyclists. Why the triangle when the rear number plate tells drivers this is no ordinary bicycle?

But if you want the present bureaucracy free e-bikes to be permitted 30 mph, forget it, it's never going to happen.

Why would government allow unregistered e-bikes to travel at 30 mph with unlicenced riders when 30 mph moped riders have to suffer driving licences and the whole of motorcycle law?
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