Carrera Sparc vs eZee Torq - Help Please!

[davidro]

Hi

I have the opportunity to take advantage of my employer's Cycle to Work scheme, and recently a guy from Halfords came in showing off the new electric Carrera Sparc they are trialling.

I could get one of these at 699 spread over 12 months tax free, which I worked out would pay for itself in my commute to work in about a year.

Then I researched a bit further and discovered this site, and specifically the eZee bike range. The Torq stands out as looking a lot more like a mountain bike and more masculine for a guy who is 6'4'! But it's obviously a lot more money and less easy to justify economically.

So which is the best to buy? I worked out the Carrera would cost just under 400 with the Torq about 800. (interestingly I have also found a US website selling Torq's for $1750, suggesting 50 cycles are making a lot of money out of UK customers).

I've heard a lot of debate about batteries, and the Carrera has NImh and the Torq LI-Ion. For that reason alone I am tempted to stick with the carrera, as 250 for a new battery every 18 months means I may as well stick to driving into work! But then again, I want the bike to be something I could potentially use outside of just commuting, and the Torq seems a more heavyweight bike. But many people on this site are complaining about their Li-ion Torqs!

Finally, I do have a modest hill about 1.5 miles long, both ways to work. I've heard the Torq is not a hill-climber. For a fairly unfit cyclist will I struggle with the Torq up hills? Is Nimh definitely the way to go? Anyone know anything about the Sparc? Do any of the guys out there have a view on the styling of these things?

Any help/thoughts on this debate much appreciated as I need to decide by November 15, the deadline for the scheme.

 

[coops]

Hi Davidro & welcome to pedelecs

I own a Torq but I don't know much about the Sparc, but it was discussed a bit recently re the Halfords offer, and I think the two are very different bikes, Torq quite ahead both in terms of peak power and (potential) top speed.

Hill-climbing ability may be more similar, but speed on slopes will be generally higher on the Torq and its generally accepted gradient limit for strong, average weight riders is around 10%, but 3-4% is very easy for a heavy rider and 5-6% equally so for an average/lightweight rider.

Frame size for you may be a limiting factor on some 'one-size-fits-all' models, though I'm almost 6' and the Torq fits me comfortably - it is quite a big bike . I don't know the Carrera frame size, sorry.

So really, the questions to help you choose are, what sort of top/cruising speed and range do you want, and how steep are your hills (roughly - if you give the location of the steepest hill you want to tackle the gradient can be calculated).

If you were to choose an Ezee bike and NiMH battery (you can!), be aware that there may be a short wait for the batteries to arrive in stock .

The U.S./UK apparent cost difference was also covered recently: it is rip-off Britain (as ever) rather than anything else.

Hope that helps & choose carefully to enjoy riding to the maximum .

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

The Torq handles moderate hills ok, it's just the steep stuff that can be troublesome, and it's a very much faster bike than any with the fairly low powered Sparc motor. However, on a long moderate hill like that one, you will have to make your full contribution to enable it to give the speed and avoid cutout problems. If you've any doubt about that, the Torq would be best bought with an NiMh battery which is also a standard eZee battery. The Sparc motored Carrera will also climb, but will be very much slower at doing it.

You don't mention your journey length, and that might influence the decision, particularly if the battery can't be charged at both ends of a journey. Could you let us know how many miles it is?

To enlarge on Stuart's comment on rip off Britain, in fairness it is just that in the case of the Torq cost here, no different from all the other products we have to pay too much for and not specific to 50cycles. We're in a costly place to live, with high VAT and import taxation etc.
.

 

[davidro]

Hi there

Thanks for the advice and the quick replies!

My journey is about 3 miles each way give or take, but does have a hill in both directions: Victoria Hill on the way up and Croft Road on the way back, both in Swindon, Wilts.

I roughly calculated about 2600ft over 100ft for the first hill, giving about 3.8% gradient, but this could be way out.

Thing is, if you have to pedal fully up a hill (especially with the sparc), is it really any easier than a good quality light mountain bike? I mean, if the extra weight is that substantial vs a light assistance motor, is it really that much better than a normal bike to warrant the money and hassle of charging etc? Just a thought, as I am new to electric bikes and have never tried one.

I am definitelly really worried about the lithium battery on the torq. It seems crazy to me to pay 1200 pounds for a bike that every two years you have to pay another 250 for a new battery (and thats if it doesnt cut out on hills as well). That wont save me any money over driving to work. Maybe the Nimh battery on the torq would be OK but they don't list this on the website any more. It worries me that 50 cycles seem to be pushing the lithium batteries despite so many posts saying that they are failing after 18 months. All the good reviews of the torq are from customers in their first year....

Therefore I am wondering if for less than 400 if the Carrera Sparc is a bargain vs double for a torq. It's really hard to know if that is worth the extra. There are many reports of people having issues with the torq bike itself as well, such as brake judder, hard ride, issues with cycling in the wet (surely a must for any commuter) etc - this isn't giving me much confidence in the quality of the bike. Can anyone reassure about the latest torq models?

Ultimately I am a lazy commuter who currently drives, and thought i could get a cool bike on the cheap and then cycle to work. The hills on a normal bike would put me off due to arriving hot and sweaty etc. If I could then use it for the odd day out for fun that would be fun as well. And I don't really want to look a fool on a lady's type bike being so tall, one poss issue with the sparc.

Final question... on the torq can you pedal the same as the sparc, plus us a throttle if you want ie. it has the best of both worlds? Which bike would you all go for?

Many thanks again, hopefully i can edge toward a decision....

david

 

[coops]

On that sort of (constant) gradient, most quality ebikes with moderate to good peak power at normal speeds should climb quite easily and much more quickly (say twice as fast) than you could manage with great effort without motor assist, and would hardly require pedalling at all - thats up to you . Even the higher geared Torq should be fine with little/no pedalling. Some lower power models, Carrera sparc possibly included, may require a little more pedal effort from you to get up hills though. So most ebikes are definitely much easier than an unpowered bike on slopes.

I bought my Torq in March 2007 and requested NiMH battery, which was rather cheaper than Li at that time (around £100 less), but between then and now NiMH batteries became in short supply & prices increased (generally, not just Ezee NiMH). Supplies seem to be increasing again, and prices may stabilise back closer to what they were previously, so if in doubt about Li batteries, simply ask for NiMH & maybe save some quid too they're only 1.5kg or so heavier than Li too (best ask 50cycles about stock/supply & expected deliveries).

Some people have never experienced brake judder, but the slightly harder ride is due to front unsprung motor weight, which is universal to the standard Torq. If you're not sure you can handle that, or manage it by tyre pressure adjustment &/or padded grips, then either the new Torq trekking (more powerful front motor and suspension forks) might suit you better .

There are lots of other bikes available, so there is always other choices besides these two: as I said, they are quite different bikes in design and performance (Torq is quite high powered, but motor is geared for speed not torque for hills over 10%, while Carrera is low powered but geared for legal speed or less (15mph): both will climb 4%, but at different speeds) so maybe better to decide what performance i.e. top speed, hill-climb ability you would prefer, then choose a bike to fit your requirements if possible .

I've heard waterproofing has improved on Ezee bikes, but details are lacking.

Lastly, power on the Torq is by throttle only and can currently be used in conjunction with pedalling required (pedelec mode) or without pedalling required ('ebike' mode - i.e. like a motor bike throttle).

I Hope that helps your choice .

Stuart.

 

[flecc]

Yes, if that really is your gradient, it won't trouble any e-bike, but if it's over 6%, the Torq will have to be regarded as needing pedalling all the time as well while climbing.

I agree on the economy issue, the bike and repeat battery costs don't always make e-bikes a good financial choice, and there should be other reasons for buying one, such as preferring to cycle for health or wanting to avoid more fossil fuel and car use. Many of us, like me, ride one simply because it's so much more enjoyable than being stuck in a car in lines of traffic, the environmental aspect being a bonus.

Either of those bikes will very easily do your job, and the shortness of the run will suit Lithium since they are best discharged as little as possible before recharge. If you hill doesn't cause cut out problems, the battery might last longer than two years since part charges don't count as whole ones. I can't guarantee anything though, since there just isn't enough long term experience with them yet.
.

 

[alex]

Carrera report

Hi. I bought a Carrera a few weeks ago & am delighted with it. It copes pretty well with some fairly formidable hills around me in Edinburgh, but you do need to keep spinning the pedals briskly in first gear & progress is slow. On slight inclines & the flat the ride is brisk & not strenuous, downhill you bomb along under pedal power only because the motor cuts out at 15mph.
The frame is 17'' with a sloping crossbar. Ideally I would prefer a bigger frame, at 5' 11'' it is just big enough for me with the seat at max. height, but for the price I can compromise a bit, & I felt able to buy a second battery (125 pounds). My experience is that an electric bike has made me much more inclined to travel by two wheels & even gentle electric assistance is alot of fun. Alex

 

[davidro]

Hi. I bought a Carrera a few weeks ago & am delighted with it. It copes pretty well with some fairly formidable hills around me in Edinburgh, but you do need to keep spinning the pedals briskly in first gear & progress is slow. On slight inclines & the flat the ride is brisk & not strenuous, downhill you bomb along under pedal power only because the motor cuts out at 15mph.
The frame is 17'' with a sloping crossbar. Ideally I would prefer a bigger frame, at 5' 11'' it is just big enough for me with the seat at max. height, but for the price I can compromise a bit, & I felt able to buy a second battery (125 pounds). My experience is that an electric bike has made me much more inclined to travel by two wheels & even gentle electric assistance is alot of fun. Alex

Alex - thanks for the post.

Is the Carrera available in a bigger frame, as I am 6'4' so from what you say i might really struggle. Also, do you mind that it looks a bit like a lady's bike (most electrics seem to)?

Does anyone out there have an opinion on how this might compare to the eZee Liv, as I have seen that this is also 699 and has the same battery as the eZee Torq and a bigger motor, but is heavier?

My run to work is quite short do the only other bike i am looking at now is the quando folding bike from ezee. Just for the convenience of storage and stop-start cycling through traffic. I guess i might look a bit ridiculous on such a small bike being so tall but i dont really want to spend more than i have and the eZee torq is by far the most expensive of the lot!

 

[flecc]

The Quando is far bigger than it looks in photos, it's a full 45" wheelbase for example, and it would surprise you when you see it in the flesh.

The rear sprung Quando I is only for taller people like you, a touch too high for my 5' 6", and I bought the Quando II. Therefore the II model is definitely out for you as it's for under 5' 6" people.

It's a powerful bike and has the same motor as the Torq, but in the rear wheel, and it's performance inspired eZee to create the Torq from it.

It's one real disadvantage is a single gear just under 70", meaning you can pedal reasonably to about 13/14 mph, but the motor outruns the pedalling to as much as 17 mph on a freshly charged battery, gradually declining to 15 mph eventually as the battery empties.

Because you can't help the motor much except on steep hills, due to the single gear, the range is stuck at around 15 miles, but that won't worry you on your journey.

With my 11 stones it climbs 12% (1 in 8) without any pedalling if wanted, and will even restart on that without help from me. With a touch of pedalling added, it will belt up that at 9/10 mph.

see Here
.

 

[coops]

The Liv has a more powerful motor so could probably climb more quickly & steeply than the Carrera (and maybe have a slightly higher top speed), though that will be offset a little by its extra weight and 3-speed gears.

Freewheel drag (on downhills for instance) is quite noticeable on the Liv, but I don't know how it compares to the Sparc system in that respect... the Quando motor, same as the Torq, should be 'minimum' drag. Frame size on the Liv was ok for me (6'), though it is not mountainbike styled .

Quando is single gear only, so pedal assist is mostly out at higher speeds & range will suffer as a result, but not a problem for your short journey . Excellent hill climber too, best of all those mentioned (and most others too) due to the powerful motor & good gearing for torque in 20" wheel.

Stuart.

 

[alex]

big bikes

The Carrera is definitely too small for you, it is only available in one size. If I were 2m tall I would consider a bigger framed German or Dutch machine.
E.g. Kalkoff Agattu, Heinzmann Estelle Sport, Koga Miyatu, Gazelle Easy Rider.

 

[Jimblob]

I would recommend the Wisper 905se - the performance matches that of the Ezee Torq (but without the reliability problems), and the new "se" version is a bigger, taller bike than the standard "e" version. I agree the Carrera is too small for you.

 

[coops]

Although the 905se battery is (said to be) a larger capacity 13.8Ah 36V, compared to 9Ah NiMH or 10Ah Li-ion Ezees, bear in mind its a lithium only option, and though its relatively quite light too, you're still paying the premium for the 'performance' aspect (20mph+).

Since the 905se has barely become available, its a bit early to speak of reliability too, isn't it?!

There have been a few more 2nd hand Torqs for sale in the pedelecs classifieds lately, you may get a good price Davidro .

Stuart.

 

[HarryB]

I would recommend the Wisper 905se - the performance matches that of the Ezee Torq (but without the reliability problems), and the new "se" version is a bigger, taller bike than the standard "e" version. I agree the Carrera is too small for you.

Don't start with the Torq reliability problems again! The main problem is the Li-ion battery which is unsuitable for heavy users. The Wisper also uses a Li-ion battery so will have the same problems (although it is a higher capacity so marginally less so). My Torq gets me to and from work more or less every day of the week and apart from punctures has never let me down.

Out of interest is the Wisper still on 26inch wheels? Any idea of the frame size as well - how much bigger is it?

 

[flecc]

I don't know whether the 905se can be derestricted for over 15.5 mph, I've seen no announcement on that, just the statements on the larger battery, modifications and improvements on the 905e model.

Their should be an A to B test at some future date, hopefully not too far away, which might give some impartial answers rather than having only agent's opinions on it.

P.S. I understand it's still on 26" wheels. I've only seen a prototype mockup based on a 905e which had the same size frame.

Apart from an initial correction on my early model, I've also had no Torq problems, and use NiMh batteries, not an option on the 905se.
.

 

[coops]

Jimblob,

From the http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/electric-bicycles/404-forum-rules-terms-conditions.html:

Please use your company name as a user name to identify yourself when offering unbiased, expert advice.

Thanks.

Stuart.

 

[HarryB]

There have been a few more 2nd hand Torqs for sale in the pedelecs classifieds lately, you may get a good price Davidro .

Stuart.

I believe that Aldby's Torq has sold. £895 - add to its attributes a good re-sale value when you come to sell. It is not the only one that has reached a high price on ebay, so obviously they are popular.

 

[davidro]

I would recommend the Wisper 905se - the performance matches that of the Ezee Torq (but without the reliability problems), and the new "se" version is a bigger, taller bike than the standard "e" version. I agree the Carrera is too small for you.

If the 905 SE is now out, surely someone has the full spec and details available? I looked on the Wisper website but it has no info apart from a small bubble announcing it is available at £1195.

As this is the exact same price as the Torq, it has to be worth seriously considering? If the weight is the same as the old 905, it appears to be significantly lighter than the Torq, but with a similar 250w motor plus a more powerful battery. Plus on a glance I'd say it looks pretty nice too.

Anyone know any more info on the 905SE vs the Torq? As to my original question on this thread, I have pretty much settled that a Carrera Sparc is not going to be the right choice for me, but if I am going to spend £1200 then I may as well choose the best bike for the money!

Another couple of questions
- Wisper offer a battery recycling scheme to save on cost of replacement batteries, do eZee?
- What is the gearing of the 905SE vs the heavily geared Torq?
- Will the 905SE be even faster than the Torq?
-Is the quality going to be better?
- Do Wisper participate in the Bikes4Work scheme, so could I order one through Halfords like apparently I can with eZee?

Cheers all, david

 

[flecc]

Sorry David, but there's no answer on the Wisper models. I have both asked and suggested that they are forwarded to A to B magazine who would happily independently review them, but we are still waiting and largely in the dark, even on the older 905e model as far as an independent review is concerned.

Last indication was that a 905se was going to be sent to them, but still no confirmation of that.

50cycles do not operate a battery recycling scheme.

Wisper say they can supply through the Cycle to Work scheme, though a customer of the Electric Bike Shop, Edinburgh was frustrated in trying to do this, due to the shop and Wisper giving conflicting information. In the end he bought a second hand bike privately.

I can only suggest you mail Wisper ( david@wisperbike.com ) and ask directly as a prospective customer if a test ride can be made available to you.

50cycles have Torq test rides at Loughborough and possibly at London.
.

 

[coops]

Most of the available information is in the 905se thread in the Wisper clinic forum, the last page of which having the most current pricing and specs.

Some info in the same forum on wispers through the halfords scheme.

Frank9755 recently tested a 905se too and posted his review in the electric bicycles forum.

Browse those threads and if you have questions, you can either ask at the relevant clinic or contact Wisper direct .

Stuart.