Carrera Crossfire E 2.0 (2021 Model) VS Woosh Gran-Camino

[SD4LABS]

Hi!

I will be going to Nottingham in September for University. I plan on getting an eBike there for commute mainly on bike lanes. I’m 5′ 7″ and weigh around 68KG. I have never searched bikes themselves properly before and I used to ride for fun on cheap bikes around 5 years ago (and before that), so since then I haven’t been on a bike.

I browsed through hundreds of options and watched many YouTube videos on the subject. Finally, it came down to these two bikes, Carrera Crossfire E 2.0 (2021 Model) and Woosh Gran-Camino (clickable names with link to sites). Halfords (Carrera Crossfire 2021) will be nearby but I cannot visit Woosh and will need them to deliver Gran-Camino to Nottingham, which also means I can’t test ride it. With Halfords I also get warranty and other help that any local store offers.

I have prepared a spreadsheet with main specs of both of the bike’s side by side, I’d appreciate it if you could quickly check it before you make a comment. I have highlighted specs that I prefer in green. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gZzYosQypihxoKC94clHR_5ORmbRYwkLCns4UhnULQw/edit?usp=sharing

I prefer the looks of Crossfire to that of Gran-Camino. I also really like the multicolour display on Crossfire. One interesting thing is battery capacity and advertised range, Carrera uses 417Wh battery and advertises 60 miles of range, whereas Gran-Camino uses 612Wh battery and advertises the same range of 60 miles. I do understand that Gran-Camino is 1.5KG heavier but 195Wh should still offer significantly more range.

Gran-Camino is meant for 5′ 8″ and taller, will It be fine for me (5′ 7″)? Any adjustments?

I do like the idea of having thumb throttle control along with pedal assist that Camino offers unlike Crossfire. I’d like input on this, how difficult is it to pedal Crossfire on highest assist mode whilst on easiest gear? Is it worth it to have a throttle control when you get really tired? Or is it easy enough to paddle crossfire on easiest gear for assist for an average person when you get very tired?

Another thing I noticed is that people really dislike the motor-system (Suntour Performance Rear Wheel Drive) of Crossfire even though I’m not fully sure as to why torque sensor here is a bad thing? Anyway, is it any better with 2021 model of Crossfire? How does Camino’s Shengyi DWG22C compare?

I do feel like I’m getting more value with Woosh Gran-Camino but for some reason Carrera Crossfire 2021 looks cooler and may be higher quality? I’d really appreciate any help here to reach the final decision! I'm also open to any other brands/bikes in this price range. Thanks!

 

[vfr400]

This is a dead easy decision. You don't need any fancy spreadsheet. The Crossfire E is a fantastic bike when it's going. The problem is that that's too often not very long, which then brings the next problem: It's not the sort of bike you can fix by yourself when something goes wrong, so you're in the hands of Halfords, who can be quite good or quite bad, and normally not so good after the warranty has run out. remember that most of the people reviewing that bike were riding it when it was working.

If you buy a standard Chinese bike, like the Woosh, it's relatively easy and cheap to fix.

If you're going to leave the bike in a student area, you need to think about security. If you leave a nice electric bike locked up in the same place every day, it won't be long before you have to walk home.

 

[SD4LABS]

This is a dead easy decision. You don't need any fancy spreadsheet. The Crossfire E is a fantastic bike when it's going. The problem is that that's too often not very long, which then brings the next problem: It's not the sort of bike you can fix by yourself when something goes wrong, so you're in the hands of Halfords, who can be quite good or quite bad, and normally not so good after the warranty has run out. remember that most of the people reviewing that bike were riding it when it was working.

If you buy a standard Chinese bike, like the Woosh, it's relatively easy and cheap to fix.

If you're going to leave the bike in a student area, you need to think about security. If you leave a nice electric bike locked up in the same place every day, it won't be long before you have to walk home.

Thanks for the reply!

As far as security is concerned, I'm the type that plans to do everything I can to keep it protected, including insurance and researching enough to make sure they pay out when needed. Bad stuff can happen in any case though so I understand that.

Now to the bikes, pleased to know that Crossfire is a good choice after all. I do get your point that Halfords can be a hit or miss. Did you check out the 2021 model of Crossfire 2.0 that I linked (https://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/electric-bikes---back-in-stock/carrera-crossfire-e-mens-electric-hybrid-bike-2021---21in-446022.html) is it exact same other than the new display or overall, any better in reliability?

Now knowing that Woosh is Chinese and added bonus that store isn’t even available locally I’m really starting to prefer Crossfire.

What do you say about not having thumb throttle control? Is that a worthy enough feature to choose a different bike for?

 

[sjpt]

As vfr400 says, even though they aren't local you will get much better support from Woosh than you are likely to from Halfords. Search this forum and you will find lots of Crossfire failures; there has been hope newer models would resolve that, but they don't seem to have done so.

Many adverts quote highly exaggerated range for normal riding; based on light rider, flat road, perfect conditions, minimal assist. Check out https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant/ to see how much variation there can be; even though for Bosch the results are broadly applicable to any normal ebike, and in particular die difference that different details will cause. You can easily tweak parameters to get it to give over 100 miles on a 400wh battery; change a few to more likely riding conditions and set it to medium assist it will drop to maybe 35 miles.

Even without the throttle you should be able to pedal in a completely relaxed way (ghost pedalling), just enough to make the sensor know you are pedalling without actually pushing on the pedals.
... I thought those bikes were both cadence sensors, but from what you way the Crossfire is torque sensor. That rules out ghost pedalling, but should still give lots of assist at full power setting. That said, torque is in some ways more 'natural', and easier for hill and junction starts as it kicks in quicker.

Nottingham is pretty flat. Are you sure you need an ebike? You can get a really nice regular bike for quite a lot less. Less security risk, much easier and cheaper to maintain. Or a more basic regular bike, even cheaper, even less security risk, and even cheaper to maintain.

 

[SD4LABS]

As vfr400 says, even though they aren't local you will get much better support from Woosh than you are likely to from Halfords. Search this forum and you will find lots of Crossfire failures; there has been hope newer models would resolve that, but they don't seem to have done so.

Many adverts quote highly exaggerated range for normal riding; based on light rider, flat road, perfect conditions, minimal assist. Check out https://www.bosch-ebike.com/en/service/range-assistant/ to see how much variation there can be; even though for Bosch the results are broadly applicable to any normal ebike, and in particular die difference that different details will cause. You can easily tweak parameters to get it to give over 100 miles on a 400wh battery; change a few to more likely riding conditions and set it to medium assist it will drop to maybe 35 miles.

Even without the throttle you should be able to pedal in a completely relaxed way (ghost pedalling), just enough to make the sensor know you are pedalling without actually pushing on the pedals.
... I thought those bikes were both cadence sensors, but from what you way the Crossfire is torque sensor. That rules out ghost pedalling, but should still give lots of assist at full power setting. That said, torque is in some ways more 'natural', and easier for hill and junction starts as it kicks in quicker.

Nottingham is pretty flat. Are you sure you need an ebike? You can get a really nice regular bike for quite a lot less. Less security risk, much easier and cheaper to maintain. Or a more basic regular bike, even cheaper, even less security risk, and even cheaper to maintain.

Thanks a lot for that info. I'm not getting eBike beacuse I need it, I'm getting it beacuse I really like them.

 

[Nealh]

Woosh have CS and keeps spares that Halfrauds can only dream of, Woosh do have service agents around the country and parts are sent out and often received in the morning post. Once you have contacted Woosh about an issue it can be resolved often with in a day or three Vs Halfrauds which may be at least two weeks if you are very lucky.

 

[Nealh]

Thanks a lot for that info. I'm not getting eBike beacuse I need it, I'm getting it beacuse I really like them.

Grand Camino then will last longer in use then the Carrera.
As vfr has eluded aside from which bike you get, the issue is keeping it safe and secure.
Lets take the obvious thing to go missing ,get broken or go wrong the nice LCD display. Halfrauds may be able to get you a new display this side of Christmas, Woosh likely within 24 hrs by post once notified.

If the Carrera you think is higher quality then I would prefer the so called lesser quality reliable bike, there is very little in it on the specs.

Carrera bike claims of 60 miles for a 417wh battery might be a figment of their marketing BS, typically that would mean low usage rate of 7wh per mile. Most riders will be hard done by to get 10-12wh miles to get 7wh per mile you need to be super fit or ride above the cut off .
Using the same calc's with a Woosh 617wh battery, the same rider should be able to achieve 88 miles range.

A few years ago Eddie Jeffries who once posted on here reviewed on a similar Woosh bike and amassed 75+ miles in some hilly terrain on the bike.

 

[egroover]

I was getting about 45 miles range on the lowest setting 'eco' on my crossfire-e when the bike was new, on a flattish route with a couple of big hills. The torque sensor makes you put the effort in. Cutting out, broken spokes, display bracket failures and a complicated proprietary parts ruin was is essentially a great bike, it's a shame Halfords (Suntour) haven't sorted these issues in the 5 years since the bike has been made (in various versions).
Get the Woosh, or better still convert a bike with a Bafang kit

 

[SD4LABS]

I was getting about 45 miles range on the lowest setting 'eco' on my crossfire-e when the bike was new, on a flattish route with a couple of big hills. The torque sensor makes you put the effort in. Cutting out, broken spokes, display bracket failures and a complicated proprietary parts ruin was is essentially a great bike, it's a shame Halfords (Suntour) haven't sorted these issues in the 5 years since the bike has been made (in various versions).
Get the Woosh, or better still convert a bike with a Bafang kit

Ah, this makes things clear. It's a shame I really liked Crossfire 2.0. Do you have to put in significant effort even on max power mode with that torque sensor? Any chance that 2021 model overall is any better? Otherwise it's pretty clear I should look for other options.

 

[sjpt]

Ah, this makes things clear. It's a shame I really liked Crossfire 2.0. Do you have to put in significant effort even on max power mode with that torque sensor? Any chance that 2021 model overall is any better? Otherwise it's pretty clear I should look for other options.

I'm not sure of the exact specs on the Crossfire, but in highest mode it will produce about 3/4 of the power and you will need to provide 1/4.

On both bikes if you hit a really steep hill the bike may slow down, and then the motor won't be able to operate at full efficiency. As you are fairly light and Nottingham is fairly flat that may not be an issue at all.

 

[Nealh]

Any TS drive will require good input from a rider as the system is a torque multiplier no effort = little power.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

My vote goes to the Woosh bike but it should be pointed out Halfords have sold a huge number of ebikes, they have about 40% of the UK bike market by volume and about 25% by revenue. The Crossfire has been a huge seller so there is going to be more issues reported than Woosh who are a tiny brand in comparison.

However like others have said the Woosh bike is more generic using easier to obtain parts to either repair, replace or upgrade.

Ultimately it is two different types of bikes though, one is a 700c hybrid and the other a mountain bike. Personally I think the mountain bike would be better, thicker tyres, stronger wheels, much better fork. A much more abuse-able bike. I guess the Woosh bike should have been compared to a Carrera Subway ebike or perhaps a Carrera hardtail e-mountain bike. They are really two different types of designs and personally for an ebike I would go with the mountain bike.

My choice would have been the Subway at £1099 though which saves £300 on either and replaces suspension forks with solid forks which is safer, lower maintenance, lighter and not necessarily less comfortable. Remember most of the weight of the rider is at the back not the front. I just don't see the point of suspension unless you are really going off-road properly and would benefit from it.

Also I personally don't see the point of the Crossfire, you have a lighter frame, faster rolling wheels and then ruin the extra speed and efficiency of it with crappy heavy suspension fork. Tyres are meant to give a suspension effect when inflated properly to suit your weight, i.e. don't just inflate to the number on the sidewalls but inflate to what achieves the best grip and comfort for you.

 

[Nealh]

Halfruads sell a lot because they are a big in the UK bike scene with many shops, the one thing Woosh do better then them by a country mile is after service and CS. Woosh bikes are very well priced for the spec and tbh the spec isn't much different then Halfrauds own brand bikes.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Halfruads sell a lot because they are a big in the UK bike scene with many shops, the one thing Woosh do better then them by a country mile is after service and CS. Woosh bikes are very well priced for the spec and tbh the spec isn't much different then Halfrauds own brand bikes.

I wouldn't argue against that but Halfords are so massive in the UK with something like 40% of all bikes sales across a huge number of stores. There are more bikes sold at Halfords than all independent bike shops in the UK put together and Halfords sell lower cost bikes where as independent bike shops sell bikes at higher prices that come from brands who likely have bikes assembled better at the factory too so less work for those shops to setup the bikes for their customers. So there are always going to be more horror stories when it comes to customer service than other retailers.

I mean just in the last few months they have serviced or repaired 750,000 bikes, a staggering figure. Even if only 1% are unhappy with the service they get that is 7,500 people who will be complaining on the internet etc.

Halfords hails “astonishing levels of uptake” with 18 bikes sold every minute over Christmas

Retailer says if current growth in cycling market is sustained, the UK will overtake the Netherlands in terms of bikes per head by 2026

road.cc

I think its important to strive to be fair at all times and put the complaint level in context to the frequency of sales.

Also some people are unreasonable. I've seen people complain about Argos bikes which they have paid next to nothing for and after 3 months they are complaining something has failed but then you find out they have done absolutely nothing to the bike except pump up the tyres. They badly assembled the bike because they didn't take it to a dealer to assemble and weren't mechanically competent themselves. Yet they are complaining the gears don't work great now or the chain is rusty or the brakes don't work as well as they did etc. Argos manuals clearly state if you are not competent to assemble the bike take it to a bicycle dealer and that ongoing maintenance is required just like any bicycle manual.

I don't know the failure rate of Carrera Crossfires but there will be a lot of them out there, maybe 100s sold from pretty much every Halfords shop over the last few years. Halfords are ordering a staggering number of bikes and get deliveries it seems frequently, each store is probably selling thousands of bikes per year based on 400 plus stores and 1 to 2 million bikes sold per year. For every £4 spent on cycling in the UK £1 of it is spent at Halfords and the average price of a bike sold in Halfords is far lower than independent bike shops some of which are specialist shops that only sell high price bikes. Halfords margin and profit level is very low compared to many brands yes they make a profit but on a huge turnover. On £1-2 billion sales I think they make 50 million or something like that.

They do some fantastic value bikes although personally I'm not a fan of the Crossfire.

 

[vfr400]

I don't know the failure rate of Carrera Crossfires but there will be a lot of them out there, maybe 100s sold from pretty much every Halfords shop over the last few years. Halfords are ordering a staggering number of bikes and get deliveries it seems frequently, each store is probably selling thousands of bikes per year based on 400 plus stores and 1 to 2 million bikes sold per year. For every £4 spent on cycling in the UK £1 of it is spent at Halfords and the average price of a bike sold in Halfords is far lower than independent bike shops some of which are specialist shops that only sell high price bikes. Halfords margin and profit level is very low compared to many brands yes they make a profit but on a huge turnover. On £1-2 billion sales I think they make 50 million or something like that.

Nice sentiments. I've got my own statistics. Whenever I'm out riding and I see people on electric bikes, I talk to them if I can. 100% of the Crossfire/Vulcan owners had problems with their bikes involving non-function in some way or another.

The Suntour torque sensor system is absolute pants. It has all sorts of vulnerabilities, which will get you sooner or later unless you keep your bike in the garage instead of riding it.

This is a design fault. The concept is fundamentally flawed. 100% of bikes with this torque sensor will fail if they're ridden enough.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Nice sentiments. I've got my own statistics. Whenever I'm out riding and I see people on electric bikes, I talk to them if I can. 100% of the Crossfire/Vulcan owners had problems with their bikes involving non-function in some way or another.

The Suntour torque sensor system is absolute pants. It has all sorts of vulnerabilities, which will get you sooner or later unless you keep your bike in the garage instead of riding it.

This is a design fault. The concept is fundamentally flawed. 100% of bikes with this torque sensor will fail if they're ridden enough.

View attachment 42550

There are people on youtube filming their uber, stuart and just eat deliveries that use their suntour equipped ebikes for a huge number of miles per day who haven't reported issues.

Here is one channel but there are quite a few that are using Carrera ebikes mostly either the Subway or Crossfire it seems.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZOtaF2WKa0wNysH4ZRH8-w/videos

The Suntour system is not exclusive to Carrera bikes such bikes are sold all over the world under many brands.

Looking on Halfords at Crossfire reviews, generally positive 4/5 but a few reviews criticising the bike for electrical issues but certainly not the majority and people with negative experiences are far more likely to write reviews. Every indication shows a small percentage of bikes have issues not the majority.

Surely Halfords wouldn't continue selling a bike where most were returned or had constant faults it would be hugely unprofitable. Halford's would have switched to a different hub system perhaps the one they use on the Carrera folding ebike which isn't Suntour. However they continue with the Suntour system.

Electric Bikes | E-Bikes | Halfords UK

Shop our Electric Bikes with interest free finance. We stock an excellent range of e-bikes suitable for all budgets, have it built and delivered.

www.halfords.com

I thought I'd read possibly on this site that the Suntour system had now been improved and modified to reduce issues.

I'm not here to defend Halfords but just try to put it into perspective that for every Woosh ebike sold there could be 1000 Suntour based ebikes out there or more. I had a quick look at Woosh company details and it said on average 2 employees, about £150k assets and about £75k liabilities. So a relatively small operation. It is completely unfair to compare a small company like Woosh to Halfords with regard complaints or issues when one company has sold many millions of bikes and perhaps Woosh have sold only hundreds. If we wanted to fairly compare issues we would have to know the percentage of issues for bikes sold.

Halfords have about 40% of bike sales by volume (not value) and it could be roughly the same for ebikes so 4 in 10 ebikes on the road are Halford's models or models sold through Halfords. Saying that I don't think many other brands have huge sales through Halfords, there may be one or two token third party brand bikes but I see very little of those in Halfords.

 

[Nealh]

Halfrauds reviews are heavily sensored, you won't see the bad ones slating the bikes. Reviews give a distorted view of a product and are bias towards both the product and company usually by a third party who have a vested interest to heavily censor said reviews, in a lot of cases reviews will not be seen.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

Halfrauds reviews are heavily sensored, you won't see the bad ones slating the bikes. Reviews give a distorted view of a product and are bias towards both the product and company usually by a third party who have a vested interest to heavily censor said reviews, in a lot of cases reviews will not be seen.

Are you the person to give a fair opinion on them. You keep calling them Halfrauds and yet Halfords massively undercut the price of bikes compared to many independent bike shops. I bought a Carrera Subway 8 about 9 or 10 years ago for £240 and got £80 in spending on accessories which was an offer at the time. I think the actual price was £320 of which you got £80 to spend on accessories but I didn't spend the initial £320 as I used giftcards etc which worked out costing me £240. So effectively the bike cost me about £160.

Anyway lets just focus on the £320 bit, a similar bike from any other shop at the time with the spec would have been about £600. It has the premium version of the Nexus 8 hub, Shimano hub brakes and decent components all around with a decent aluminium frame. A lovely bike. They set it up well and even replaced the fitted bottom bracket with a higher quality Shimano unit before I collected it. It was perfectly setup by the Halfords staff and they did a good job on the six week service too. That was the last time the bike was ever at Halfords.

I've not bought a bike from Halfords since and I'm certainly not going to judge them on my one experience but Halfrauds seems unfair considering most retailers charge a lot more for the same spec bikes.

There has been very few recalls on Halfords bikes despite their huge sales in fact many of the big brands have had a huge number of recalls as have Decathlon one of their main competitors. Surely if there was such a huge range of failures with Suntour ebike motor systems that would merit a recall. Admittedly perhaps it isn't so much a safety issue more just a functional issue.

Also the Carrera Crosscity ebikes which have also sold in huge numbers also have quite a few reported electrical faults and that is using a generic non-Suntour setup with much more conventional/generic ebike parts. The sort of parts much more easy to upgrade or swop out except for the battery itself which stores in the frame.