Cargo bike Vogue Carry 2 | Bafang M400 | C07 | Lack of torque

Hello Everyone

 

I have bought an Cargo bike from Vogue. The Carry 2.

 

I am in the EU, and I am a bit disappointed by the lack of torque of the engine . Speed is not a problem. The limit at 25 km/h is ok for me as I ride mainly with the kids in the city. But I need more torque, especially that I am in a hilly area and got in some trouble are when the bike was loaded with 2 or 3 kids

 

I have tried to unlock the display, but apparently there are no setting for the torque. Only max speed.

 

1) How can I adjust the torque? is it capped?

 

2) everytime I change gear (nexus 7), the M400 cuts a micro second (I assume to allow the gear to change without too much torque into the hub) is this normal?

 

Thanks

 

The specs are below:

 

Engine BAFANG M400 Max Drive

Power Motor 80Nm

Motor position 13 Ah

Battery Type CAN

Range 45-60 km

Maximum Speed 25 km/h

Edited December 5, 20232 yr by badaboum

The easiest way to change the torque is to lower the gearing with a new chainwheel. The torque will increase directly with the proportion of teeth reduction, so you get a 10% increase if you go from 42T to 38T and a 20% increase if you go from 42T to 32T. You'll have to take the equivalent number of links out of the chain with a chain-breaker.

 

https://vi.aliexpress.com/item/1005004475067502.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2vnm

In view that you have hills and two/3 kids on the bike, you should consider a conversion with a stronger motor like the Tongsheng 48V TSDZ8 or 48V BBS02 capable to go up to 120NM. If you are in the UK, I can sell you a suitable road legal kit.

2) everytime I change gear (nexus 7), the M400 cuts a micro second (I assume to allow the gear to change without too much torque into the hub) is this normal?

I find it necessary to ease off power (both rider and motor) to get a smooth change on the Nexus 7. If I don't I may get a crunch in the gears, or more likely it just won't change. That's with an early version Raleigh Motus with relatively weak Bosch Active Line not plus; the effect would be worse on a cargo bike with high torque.

 

I have to do this myself; stop pedalling for a fraction of a second and the engine cuts out and the change is ok. It may be your setup has something to notice the attempted gear change and ease off the motor automatically.

 

p.s. We I haven't had any issues with the Nexus 7. There are reports that it isn't very robust for e-bike use; actually less strong than the Nexus 8. If you increase the torque whether by motor, higher voltage or lower gearing you will increase the strain on the Nexus 7.

Edited December 5, 20232 yr by sjpt

80 Nm is a decent amount of torque for a 25km/h bike. I suspect the issue is heavy loads on steep hills being too much for the lowest gear the nexus gives you.

 

As Saneagle says, you can lower the gearing, but that may then limit you at top speed. The real problem is the rather limited 307% gear range of the hub. Not enough really, and real fixes are either revert to mtb derailleur gears, or a hub with the range of a Rohloff.

 

My 11 speed M5100 11-51 with a 38T chainring get me up anything, and the Rohloff has an even wider range.

As well as changing the chain ring, one can also change the nexus sprocket to change gearing.

As has been mentioned, installing a smaller chainring will help.

 

But I need more torque, especially that I am in a hilly area and got in some trouble are when the bike was loaded with 2 or 3 kids

 

What trouble did you get into? If motor power cut out, perhaps that was due to voltage sag and you should buy a larger capacity battery? 13Ah isn't small, but if you're attempting tackling steep hills when charge is running low, I can imagine voltage sag causing motor stalls with a heavy 90kg bike+you+cargo. The installation of a smaller chainring is what needs to happen first, as this will reduce power required from the motor and battery.

 

 

2) everytime I change gear (nexus 7), the M400 cuts a micro second (I assume to allow the gear to change without too much torque into the hub) is this normal?

 

That'd be the gear sensor.

Edited December 5, 20232 yr by guerney

Thanks all for the feedback

 

Basicaly we have a big hill to get home and my wife is having trouble pedaling at full power and lower gear

 

We used to have an old cargo with a 250w front wheel motor with a very basic design and never had that problem (with a nexus 3)

 

I have the feeling that the motor can do more .... I have upgraded from a 10 year old cargo to a brand new one but feels I have less power...

 

Looking at the menu, I can see the following option after NNA

 

LUD = 28 inch

SPL = 25 kmh (logical)

CHc : 1.0

CSc : 001.3

dHc = 1.0

dSc = 01.1

Shc =

SSc = 01.0

EO0 = 00

EO1= 00

EO2 = 00

EO3 = 00

EO4 = 00

EO5 = 00

EO6 = 00

EO7 = 00

EO8 = 00

EO0 = 00

 

 

Any of those handle the torque? How to change it if it is the case?

 

I am surprised that I was able to access this without the password need

 

Thanks agian all

I think the problem you have is twofold: torque sensing means that you have to pedal harder to get more out of your motor and the motor itself has a fairly limited maximum power. Your wife needs a cadence sensor like the BBS02 or a TSDZ8 with a throttle, both are capable of 120NM, to winch herself plus the kids up a steep hill without relying on leg power.

Basicaly we have a big hill to get home and my wife is having trouble pedaling at full power and lower gear

 

Installing a smaller chainwheel will help.

 

Towing that sort of weight uphill is no problem for my 250W Bafang 36V BBS01B, but my bike has small 20" wheels, the motor is cadence sensing, the battery is 19.2Ah, and I was able to change "Keep current" to 100% in firmware using the configurator for my motor controller - it had been set to "20%", which was useless. It could be that your Max Drive has a "Keep Current" default of 30% - here's the relevant screenshot from the configurator for a Max Ultra before modification:

 

 

 

I don't know if there is a configurator for your Max Drive - perhaps your dealer has one, and can change the "Keep Current" setting for you? But your motor is torque sensing, so increasing "Keep Current" might not help enough. I also don't know if your motor can be switched to cadence sensing, which would make pedalling a lot easier. With my bicycle trailer towing cadence sensing motor, you only have to be able to pedal a little to get full power, if firmware is set appropriately. If you do find a firmware configurator for your motor, changing firmware settings yourself risks turning your motor into a doorstop.

 

Torque sensored motors look great for achieving speed and efficiency, but IMHO cadence sensored motors are better for cargo bikes.

 

For the Ultra:

 

https://electricbike-blog.com/2017/11/23/i-void-warranties-hacking-the-bafang-ultra-max-mid-drive-ebike-drive/

Edited December 6, 20232 yr by guerney

Thanks all for the feedback

 

Basicaly we have a big hill to get home and my wife is having trouble pedaling at full power and lower gear

 

We used to have an old cargo with a 250w front wheel motor with a very basic design and never had that problem (with a nexus 3)

 

I have the feeling that the motor can do more .... I have upgraded from a 10 year old cargo to a brand new one but feels I have less power...

 

Looking at the menu, I can see the following option after NNA

 

LUD = 28 inch

SPL = 25 kmh (logical)

CHc : 1.0

CSc : 001.3

dHc = 1.0

dSc = 01.1

Shc =

SSc = 01.0

EO0 = 00

EO1= 00

EO2 = 00

EO3 = 00

EO4 = 00

EO5 = 00

EO6 = 00

EO7 = 00

EO8 = 00

EO0 = 00

 

 

Any of those handle the torque? How to change it if it is the case?

 

I am surprised that I was able to access this without the password need

 

Thanks agian all

That sounds like a gearing issue. If you pedal that motor too slowly, it doesn't make any power. You have to keep it spinning at around 60 rpm when climbing, but if your gearing is too high it slows down your pedalling. I'm pretty sure that a new chainwheel will fix it for her. If the one you have is 44T or 42T, I'd go for 38T.

 

There is one other thing that could be causing your problem that other forum members have experienced and had similar complaints to yours: It's quite common for the "keep current" to be set too low, but I don't know how that relates to the LCD settings you've shown. It should be set to 100%, but some have had it at around 30%. It would be easier to see the settings using the Bafang programming tool.

Edited December 5, 20232 yr by saneagle

Thanks All for your inputs!!

 

A few questions on my side:

 

1) is there a way for me to get the Bafand Diag tool and do it myselft? I kind of don't trust dealer here in paris who tries to scam as much as possible. I mean is i buy the tool that I see at 60€ on Aliexpress, will I be locked by a password, or something like that?

 

2) My wheel size in the C07 is set to 28 inch, but my actual wheel size is 26 inch

That means that my speed is somehow always wrong. How can I change this? Is there an impact on the torque? Do I need the diag tool to change it?

 

3) Any decyphering of the codes that I see on my screen?

LUD = 28 inch

SPL = 25 kmh (logical)

CHc : 1.0

CSc : 001.3

dHc = 1.0

dSc = 01.1

Shc =

SSc = 01.0

EO0 = 00

EO1= 00

EO2 = 00

EO3 = 00

EO4 = 00

EO5 = 00

EO6 = 00

EO7 = 00

EO8 = 00

EO0 = 00

 

 

Thanks

the LCD may be locked by Bafang, in which case, you can't change the setting with the diagnostic tool. You will have to get a new LCD which is normally not locked.

If you can't change the SPL register, then the LCD may be password protected or locked. Press and hold both + and - button when in settings for 3 seconds. If it asks for password, try 0512. That's the default password for OEMs but of course, the first thing an OEM will do is to change it.

If it does nothing, then the LCD is locked by firmware. There is nothing else you can do. Before spending your money on a new LCD and programming tool, it's better to understand your requirements and solutions. The basics is this: your motor is the basic model. OEMs like myself have to ask Bafang for changes to have the specs modified to suit our target. Typically, higher power versions run at 48V and the basic motor core is replaced with a more robust version. If you reprogram a basic motor, you will reduce its reliability. There is no free lunch.

Thanks for the detailed input

 

I will try the password see if I can change the wheel size (strange that a 1 year old bike has the wrong size...)

 

My reasoning, is the following:

 

The Vogue is made by dutch people whom are know for flat surface and extensive ridding. I am wondering that somehow they have tweaked the engine to cap the torque and increase range.

Where I leave in France, it's quite the opposite (less range and more hills)

 

Morover, I have a point of comparison between my 15 years old cargo bike that I swapped for this one.

 

The Panda bike that I had featured an DAPU 123 250W / 30NM hub motor (pedal sensor driven) that allowed us to go easily up the hills (with a nexus 3)

This one, has a claimed 80NM peak torque and with a Nexus 7 I am sttrugling...

 

I have made such a leap in terms of braking, handling and frame strengts, that I am wondering how is that even possible on the engine to be so far from the old one

 

Hope this helps understand where I am going and see if one of the code that I see on the screen can help me get back where I was with my ''vintage cargo''

 

VOGUE is not distributed in France (you buy the bike via online distributor so 0 local support is possible and they are not responsive to email/facebook contact

I am wondering that somehow they have tweaked the engine to cap the torque and increase range.

no OEM will do such thing. Motors with torque sensors always encourage you to pedal hard, the harder you pedal, the more output power you get. Range is always better than with motors with cadence sensors where you can pedal much less.

If you like the natural feel of torque sensing motors, you need a throttle to climb hills effortlessly. There is only one way do do this in the EU (OEM bikes in the EU don't have throttles) which is a conversion with Tongsheng TSDZ2B with throttle or the newer TSDZ8 with throttle.

 

Here is an example of a conversion:

https://www.leboncoin.fr/velos/2441497687.htm

Edited December 6, 20232 yr by Woosh

The Panda bike that I had featured an DAPU 123 250W / 30NM hub motor (pedal sensor driven) that allowed us to go easily up the hills (with a nexus 3)

This one, has a claimed 80NM peak torque and with a Nexus 7 I am sttrugling...

 

I have made such a leap in terms of braking, handling and frame strengts, that I am wondering how is that even possible on the engine to be so far from the old one

I have a bike with the same Bafang 80Nm motor as you. It will pull like a train if you put the effort in.

 

You're not listening to what you've been told... Your old bike with cadence sensor just needed the pedals to turn (even with little or no pressure) to apply power. Your new bike with Torque sensor applies power directly dependent upon how much pressure you apply to the pedals. It's not the motor, it's you not putting in the effort, and if that's how you choose to ride, you've bought a bike with the wrong drive system for you...

 

But as others have said, change the gearing and/or see if you can access the parameters to change the settings (as mentioned, "keep current" has a significant impact).

 

You need to check the plug on your display; if it's round it uses UART to communicate and this works with the free PC and Android Apps to program the controller. If it's a house shaped plug, it's CANbus language and you'll need a dealer with the Bafang's BESST software (although I think even end-users can buy that now for about £100?).

 

If you'd bought a bike using the Bafang M410 80Nm drive, AFAIK you could change that out for the M600 120Nm which has the same fixings, but it's still a torque drive and not cadence and expensive to do.

If you'd bought a bike using the Bafang M410 80Nm drive, AFAIK you could change that out for the M600 120Nm which has the same fixings, but it's still a torque drive and not cadence and expensive to do.

that does not solve the problem for his wife. Only a throttle can do that.

https://www.divedesco.com/P/194/DESCOUSNavyHeavyWeightDivingShoeswWhiteCanvasUppers

that does not solve the problem for his wife. Only a throttle can do that.

 

Thanks. Indeed

 

For me , when we are going up the hill, Nexus on 1, giving everything we can, the torque should be high enough to force the 80NM at their max

Somehow I do not have this feeling. I feel that there is a restrainer somewhere

 

One way to solve this could be inned to add a Throttle controller.

 

Tomorrow I will check if the bike is UART or Canbus and advise

 

Thanks

Thanks. Indeed

 

For me , when we are going up the hill, Nexus on 1, giving everything we can, the torque should be high enough to force the 80NM at their max

Somehow I do not have this feeling. I feel that there is a restrainer somewhere

 

One way to solve this could be inned to add a Throttle controller.

 

Tomorrow I will check if the bike is UART or Canbus and advise

 

Thanks

Only if your cadence is at least 60 rpm. If you cannot manage cadence of 60 then the gearing is too high, so lower it enough to achieve 60, then see how it feels.

 

If your cadence is at least 60 then the other lines of enquiry carry more weight, but there is nothing to be done for a motor that cannot spin fast enough except allow it to spin fast enough!

Only if your cadence is at least 60 rpm. If you cannot manage cadence of 60 then the gearing is too high, so lower it enough to achieve 60, then see how it feels.

 

If your cadence is at least 60 then the other lines of enquiry carry more weight, but there is nothing to be done for a motor that cannot spin fast enough except allow it to spin fast enough!

Cadence doesn't normally affect the motor's torque unless there's some weird setting like keep current too low, then it works in reverse - if you pedal too fast, it reduces power. Spinning the motor faster would normally generate more power, but only if you can gear down to take advantage of it. How can you pedal faster if you don't have the power to climb? That's the problem that OP wants to solve.

 

From the description of the problem, I'd say that the keep current is set too low, the same as what some other forum members experienced with their various Bafang mid-drives. OP needs to find out what it's set to.

 

https://endless-sphere.com/sphere/threads/bafang-max-drive-250w-readout.85918/

 

https://forums.electricbikereview.com/threads/bafang-max-drive-m400.53294/

Edited December 6, 20232 yr by saneagle

[mention=33660]guerney[/mention] is right in post #10. You can spin at 60rpm but once you're there, it "keeps current" at 30% in @guerneys example screenshot, which is typical. You can up it to 100% as [mention=33660]guerney[/mention] has done, and it'll "keep" applying 100% current. IMO 30% isn't enough for a constant rpm rate hauling weight up a hill... you'd need to push or change the setting.

 

Then there's "start current". That determines how much current is applied on the first turn of the pedals. If you up that to 100% and keep current is 100% you'll fly like a rocket... and your battery will be cooked in no time at all. That's why you need to compromise. If you up all the settings just to get up one hill, you're draining your battery needlessly on the flats or when you're not hauling your kids around, and on start, you're wrecking your chain/cassette pulling that weight.

 

(Both "start" and "keep" are relative to "levels" typically 1-5 or 1-9 being set suitably too as a % of total). You could in theory set-up say levels 1-5 for max assist hauling kids up steep inclines with no effort, and levels 6-9 for sensible assist for when you're not and not killing your bike.

 

that does not solve the problem for his wife. Only a throttle can do that.

The OP can add a throttle to his M400/80Nm or any of Bafangs M range, including the M600/120Nm... Cheapies start from about £12 on Ebay. There's a separate tab to set-up how you want the throttle to perform in the UART App. CANbus BESST I don't know.

The Vogue is made by dutch people whom are know for flat surface and extensive ridding.

 

If that was my bike, I'd try changing the chainwheel first. Installing a smaller chainwheel has been suggested several times already, and by other members. For my particular bike, I tried 42T and 48T, before settling on 52T as best for both towing trailers uphill and speed over the flats. You probably should go slow when carrying kids around?

 

 

Then there's "start current". .....If you up that to 100% and keep current is 100% you'll fly like a rocket... and your battery will be cooked in no time at all.

 

And that's exactly what my bike did, during the brief time my motor was unrestricted. Sadly, I discovered it was illegal to have so much fun rocketing about. These days it zooms to 25km/h, at which point assistance rapidly diminishes.

 

 

Then there's "start current". That determines how much current is applied on the first turn of the pedal............................and on start, you're wrecking your chain/cassette pulling that weight.

 

My "Start current" was originally 20%, which made the bike jerky when pedal assitance started applying power - I can imagine this being useful offroad, to get the bike over tree logs , roche moutonnees and sleeping bears etc, but it made my small wheeled bike jump forwards, making U-turns and control difficult. Overall it was set up badly and I was on the verge of demanding a refund, but after changing "Start current" to 10%, and adjusting other parameters, my bike became a joy to ride.

 

 

(Both "start" and "keep" are relative to "levels" typically 1-5 or 1-9 being set suitably too as a % of total). You could in theory set-up say levels 1-5 for max assist hauling kids up steep inclines with no effort, and levels 6-9 for sensible assist for when you're not and not killing your bike.

 

I'd like "Start current" be completely independently assignable for each level, but it's not currently possible.

 

 

keep current is 100% you'll fly like a rocket... and your battery will be cooked in no time at all.

 

That's a very important consideration - I posted photos of the cells my 19.2Ah battery contains, and [mention=9614]Nealh[/mention] kindly determined my battery is capable of discharging about 25A maximum continuous current. The OP's battery is only 13Ah, and cell manufacturer and type isn't mentioned... vague on the Vogue website.

 

All of my heavy trailer hauling was done when my controller had been limited to 15A, and it has never failed to drag a trailer uphill. I thought it might with one particular load, but my quick release rear axle got yanked out by that very heavily loaded trailer on the flat, well before I'd dragged it to the hill.

 

 

If you like the natural feel of torque sensing motors, you need a throttle to climb hills effortlessly.

that does not solve the problem for his wife. Only a throttle can do that.

One way to solve this could be inned to add a Throttle controller.

Your wife needs a cadence sensor like the BBS02 or a TSDZ8 with a throttle, both are capable of 120NM, to winch herself plus the kids up a steep hill without relying on leg power.

The OP can add a throttle to his M400/80Nm or any of Bafangs M range, including the M600/120Nm... Cheapies start from about £12 on Ebay.

 

Not as eye-watering as being guillotined by some dude smoking Gauloises wearing a onion necklace, but aren't fines for illegal ebikes eye-wateringly expensive in France? The OP should bear this in mind, and research the relevant local laws before deciding whether to install a throttle.

Edited December 7, 20232 yr by guerney

The OP can add a throttle to his M400/80Nm or any of Bafangs M range, including the M600/120Nm... Cheapies start from about £12 on Ebay. There's a separate tab to set-up how you want the throttle to perform in the UART App. CANbus BESST I don't know.

there are several threads about this on ES. Some people bricked their controllers because a) it's easy to make mistakes and b) the wire colours are not exposed at the connectors and OEMs may vary which wire goes where at the SM connectors. Bafang themselves change the wires positions in my batches, that's how I know after blowing up a few components myself. You have to check for ground and 5V with a multitester to be sure.

In view that you have hills and two/3 kids on the bike, you should consider a conversion with a stronger motor like the Tongsheng 48V TSDZ8 or 48V BBS02 capable to go up to 120NM. If you are in the UK, I can sell you a suitable road legal kit.

 

 

Is it 250watt ?