Cargo bike Vogue Carry 2 | Bafang M400 | C07 | Lack of torque

[badaboum]

Hello Everyone

I have bought an Cargo bike from Vogue. The Carry 2.

I am in the EU, and I am a bit disappointed by the lack of torque of the engine . Speed is not a problem. The limit at 25 km/h is ok for me as I ride mainly with the kids in the city. But I need more torque, especially that I am in a hilly area and got in some trouble are when the bike was loaded with 2 or 3 kids

I have tried to unlock the display, but apparently there are no setting for the torque. Only max speed.

1) How can I adjust the torque? is it capped?

2) everytime I change gear (nexus 7), the M400 cuts a micro second (I assume to allow the gear to change without too much torque into the hub) is this normal?

Thanks

The specs are below:

Engine BAFANG M400 Max Drive
Power Motor 80Nm
Motor position 13 Ah
Battery Type CAN
Range 45-60 km
Maximum Speed 25 km/h

 

[saneagle]

The easiest way to change the torque is to lower the gearing with a new chainwheel. The torque will increase directly with the proportion of teeth reduction, so you get a 10% increase if you go from 42T to 38T and a 20% increase if you go from 42T to 32T. You'll have to take the equivalent number of links out of the chain with a chain-breaker.

Bafang M400 Chain Wheel Chainring, Torque Motor, 32T, 34T, 36T, 38T, 40T - AliExpress 18

Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com

vi.aliexpress.com

 

[Woosh]

In view that you have hills and two/3 kids on the bike, you should consider a conversion with a stronger motor like the Tongsheng 48V TSDZ8 or 48V BBS02 capable to go up to 120NM. If you are in the UK, I can sell you a suitable road legal kit.

 

[sjpt]

2) everytime I change gear (nexus 7), the M400 cuts a micro second (I assume to allow the gear to change without too much torque into the hub) is this normal?

I find it necessary to ease off power (both rider and motor) to get a smooth change on the Nexus 7. If I don't I may get a crunch in the gears, or more likely it just won't change. That's with an early version Raleigh Motus with relatively weak Bosch Active Line not plus; the effect would be worse on a cargo bike with high torque.

I have to do this myself; stop pedalling for a fraction of a second and the engine cuts out and the change is ok. It may be your setup has something to notice the attempted gear change and ease off the motor automatically.

p.s. We I haven't had any issues with the Nexus 7. There are reports that it isn't very robust for e-bike use; actually less strong than the Nexus 8. If you increase the torque whether by motor, higher voltage or lower gearing you will increase the strain on the Nexus 7.

 

[matthewslack]

80 Nm is a decent amount of torque for a 25km/h bike. I suspect the issue is heavy loads on steep hills being too much for the lowest gear the nexus gives you.

As Saneagle says, you can lower the gearing, but that may then limit you at top speed. The real problem is the rather limited 307% gear range of the hub. Not enough really, and real fixes are either revert to mtb derailleur gears, or a hub with the range of a Rohloff.

My 11 speed M5100 11-51 with a 38T chainring get me up anything, and the Rohloff has an even wider range.

 

[Nealh]

As well as changing the chain ring, one can also change the nexus sprocket to change gearing.

 

[guerney]

As has been mentioned, installing a smaller chainring will help.

But I need more torque, especially that I am in a hilly area and got in some trouble are when the bike was loaded with 2 or 3 kids

What trouble did you get into? If motor power cut out, perhaps that was due to voltage sag and you should buy a larger capacity battery? 13Ah isn't small, but if you're attempting tackling steep hills when charge is running low, I can imagine voltage sag causing motor stalls with a heavy 90kg bike+you+cargo. The installation of a smaller chainring is what needs to happen first, as this will reduce power required from the motor and battery.

2) everytime I change gear (nexus 7), the M400 cuts a micro second (I assume to allow the gear to change without too much torque into the hub) is this normal?

That'd be the gear sensor.

 

[badaboum]

Thanks all for the feedback

Basicaly we have a big hill to get home and my wife is having trouble pedaling at full power and lower gear

We used to have an old cargo with a 250w front wheel motor with a very basic design and never had that problem (with a nexus 3)

I have the feeling that the motor can do more .... I have upgraded from a 10 year old cargo to a brand new one but feels I have less power...

Looking at the menu, I can see the following option after NNA

LUD = 28 inch
SPL = 25 kmh (logical)
CHc : 1.0
CSc : 001.3
dHc = 1.0
dSc = 01.1
Shc =
SSc = 01.0
EO0 = 00
EO1= 00
EO2 = 00
EO3 = 00
EO4 = 00
EO5 = 00
EO6 = 00
EO7 = 00
EO8 = 00
EO0 = 00


Any of those handle the torque? How to change it if it is the case?

I am surprised that I was able to access this without the password need

Thanks agian all

 

[Woosh]

I think the problem you have is twofold: torque sensing means that you have to pedal harder to get more out of your motor and the motor itself has a fairly limited maximum power. Your wife needs a cadence sensor like the BBS02 or a TSDZ8 with a throttle, both are capable of 120NM, to winch herself plus the kids up a steep hill without relying on leg power.

 

[guerney]

Basicaly we have a big hill to get home and my wife is having trouble pedaling at full power and lower gear

Installing a smaller chainwheel will help.

Towing that sort of weight uphill is no problem for my 250W Bafang 36V BBS01B, but my bike has small 20" wheels, the motor is cadence sensing, the battery is 19.2Ah, and I was able to change "Keep current" to 100% in firmware using the configurator for my motor controller - it had been set to "20%", which was useless. It could be that your Max Drive has a "Keep Current" default of 30% - here's the relevant screenshot from the configurator for a Max Ultra before modification:

I don't know if there is a configurator for your Max Drive - perhaps your dealer has one, and can change the "Keep Current" setting for you? But your motor is torque sensing, so increasing "Keep Current" might not help enough. I also don't know if your motor can be switched to cadence sensing, which would make pedalling a lot easier. With my bicycle trailer towing cadence sensing motor, you only have to be able to pedal a little to get full power, if firmware is set appropriately. If you do find a firmware configurator for your motor, changing firmware settings yourself risks turning your motor into a doorstop.

Torque sensored motors look great for achieving speed and efficiency, but IMHO cadence sensored motors are better for cargo bikes.

For the Ultra:

I Void Warranties : Hacking The Bafang Ultra Max Mid-Drive Ebike Drive

There is half a dozen low power torque sensing mid drives on the market right now that advertise themselves as being between 250 and 750 Watts. The one thing that all these ‘low power’ …

electricbike-blog.com

 

[saneagle]

Thanks all for the feedback

Basicaly we have a big hill to get home and my wife is having trouble pedaling at full power and lower gear

We used to have an old cargo with a 250w front wheel motor with a very basic design and never had that problem (with a nexus 3)

I have the feeling that the motor can do more .... I have upgraded from a 10 year old cargo to a brand new one but feels I have less power...

Looking at the menu, I can see the following option after NNA

LUD = 28 inch
SPL = 25 kmh (logical)
CHc : 1.0
CSc : 001.3
dHc = 1.0
dSc = 01.1
Shc =
SSc = 01.0
EO0 = 00
EO1= 00
EO2 = 00
EO3 = 00
EO4 = 00
EO5 = 00
EO6 = 00
EO7 = 00
EO8 = 00
EO0 = 00


Any of those handle the torque? How to change it if it is the case?

I am surprised that I was able to access this without the password need

Thanks agian all

That sounds like a gearing issue. If you pedal that motor too slowly, it doesn't make any power. You have to keep it spinning at around 60 rpm when climbing, but if your gearing is too high it slows down your pedalling. I'm pretty sure that a new chainwheel will fix it for her. If the one you have is 44T or 42T, I'd go for 38T.

There is one other thing that could be causing your problem that other forum members have experienced and had similar complaints to yours: It's quite common for the "keep current" to be set too low, but I don't know how that relates to the LCD settings you've shown. It should be set to 100%, but some have had it at around 30%. It would be easier to see the settings using the Bafang programming tool.

 

[badaboum]

Thanks All for your inputs!!

A few questions on my side:

1) is there a way for me to get the Bafand Diag tool and do it myselft? I kind of don't trust dealer here in paris who tries to scam as much as possible. I mean is i buy the tool that I see at 60€ on Aliexpress, will I be locked by a password, or something like that?

2) My wheel size in the C07 is set to 28 inch, but my actual wheel size is 26 inch
That means that my speed is somehow always wrong. How can I change this? Is there an impact on the torque? Do I need the diag tool to change it?

3) Any decyphering of the codes that I see on my screen?
LUD = 28 inch
SPL = 25 kmh (logical)
CHc : 1.0
CSc : 001.3
dHc = 1.0
dSc = 01.1
Shc =
SSc = 01.0
EO0 = 00
EO1= 00
EO2 = 00
EO3 = 00
EO4 = 00
EO5 = 00
EO6 = 00
EO7 = 00
EO8 = 00
EO0 = 00


Thanks

 

[Woosh]

the LCD may be locked by Bafang, in which case, you can't change the setting with the diagnostic tool. You will have to get a new LCD which is normally not locked.
If you can't change the SPL register, then the LCD may be password protected or locked. Press and hold both + and - button when in settings for 3 seconds. If it asks for password, try 0512. That's the default password for OEMs but of course, the first thing an OEM will do is to change it.
If it does nothing, then the LCD is locked by firmware. There is nothing else you can do. Before spending your money on a new LCD and programming tool, it's better to understand your requirements and solutions. The basics is this: your motor is the basic model. OEMs like myself have to ask Bafang for changes to have the specs modified to suit our target. Typically, higher power versions run at 48V and the basic motor core is replaced with a more robust version. If you reprogram a basic motor, you will reduce its reliability. There is no free lunch.

 

[badaboum]

Thanks for the detailed input

I will try the password see if I can change the wheel size (strange that a 1 year old bike has the wrong size...)

My reasoning, is the following:

The Vogue is made by dutch people whom are know for flat surface and extensive ridding. I am wondering that somehow they have tweaked the engine to cap the torque and increase range.
Where I leave in France, it's quite the opposite (less range and more hills)

Morover, I have a point of comparison between my 15 years old cargo bike that I swapped for this one.

The Panda bike that I had featured an DAPU 123 250W / 30NM hub motor (pedal sensor driven) that allowed us to go easily up the hills (with a nexus 3)
This one, has a claimed 80NM peak torque and with a Nexus 7 I am sttrugling...

I have made such a leap in terms of braking, handling and frame strengts, that I am wondering how is that even possible on the engine to be so far from the old one

Hope this helps understand where I am going and see if one of the code that I see on the screen can help me get back where I was with my ''vintage cargo''

VOGUE is not distributed in France (you buy the bike via online distributor so 0 local support is possible and they are not responsive to email/facebook contact

 

[Woosh]

I am wondering that somehow they have tweaked the engine to cap the torque and increase range.

no OEM will do such thing. Motors with torque sensors always encourage you to pedal hard, the harder you pedal, the more output power you get. Range is always better than with motors with cadence sensors where you can pedal much less.
If you like the natural feel of torque sensing motors, you need a throttle to climb hills effortlessly. There is only one way do do this in the EU (OEM bikes in the EU don't have throttles) which is a conversion with Tongsheng TSDZ2B with throttle or the newer TSDZ8 with throttle.

Here is an example of a conversion:

https://www.leboncoin.fr/velos/2441497687.htm

 

[cyclebuddy]

The Panda bike that I had featured an DAPU 123 250W / 30NM hub motor (pedal sensor driven) that allowed us to go easily up the hills (with a nexus 3)
This one, has a claimed 80NM peak torque and with a Nexus 7 I am sttrugling...

I have made such a leap in terms of braking, handling and frame strengts, that I am wondering how is that even possible on the engine to be so far from the old one

I have a bike with the same Bafang 80Nm motor as you. It will pull like a train if you put the effort in.

You're not listening to what you've been told... Your old bike with cadence sensor just needed the pedals to turn (even with little or no pressure) to apply power. Your new bike with Torque sensor applies power directly dependent upon how much pressure you apply to the pedals. It's not the motor, it's you not putting in the effort, and if that's how you choose to ride, you've bought a bike with the wrong drive system for you...

But as others have said, change the gearing and/or see if you can access the parameters to change the settings (as mentioned, "keep current" has a significant impact).

You need to check the plug on your display; if it's round it uses UART to communicate and this works with the free PC and Android Apps to program the controller. If it's a house shaped plug, it's CANbus language and you'll need a dealer with the Bafang's BESST software (although I think even end-users can buy that now for about £100?).

If you'd bought a bike using the Bafang M410 80Nm drive, AFAIK you could change that out for the M600 120Nm which has the same fixings, but it's still a torque drive and not cadence and expensive to do.

 

[Woosh]

If you'd bought a bike using the Bafang M410 80Nm drive, AFAIK you could change that out for the M600 120Nm which has the same fixings, but it's still a torque drive and not cadence and expensive to do.

that does not solve the problem for his wife. Only a throttle can do that.

 

[lenny]

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[badaboum]

that does not solve the problem for his wife. Only a throttle can do that.

Thanks. Indeed

For me , when we are going up the hill, Nexus on 1, giving everything we can, the torque should be high enough to force the 80NM at their max
Somehow I do not have this feeling. I feel that there is a restrainer somewhere

One way to solve this could be inned to add a Throttle controller.

Tomorrow I will check if the bike is UART or Canbus and advise

Thanks

 

[matthewslack]

Thanks. Indeed

For me , when we are going up the hill, Nexus on 1, giving everything we can, the torque should be high enough to force the 80NM at their max
Somehow I do not have this feeling. I feel that there is a restrainer somewhere

One way to solve this could be inned to add a Throttle controller.

Tomorrow I will check if the bike is UART or Canbus and advise

Thanks

Only if your cadence is at least 60 rpm. If you cannot manage cadence of 60 then the gearing is too high, so lower it enough to achieve 60, then see how it feels.

If your cadence is at least 60 then the other lines of enquiry carry more weight, but there is nothing to be done for a motor that cannot spin fast enough except allow it to spin fast enough!