Can someone clear the law thing with e-bikes.

[NRG]

A throttle controlled bike also has that 250 watts if the throttle is fully opened, so at all lower throttle settings there's less power, that is it's limited.

Therefore, if a pedelec bike has a throttle as well, that can only reduce the available 250 watts, it can't make it more of course, so the throttle is a power limiter..

Flecc, this is not true. It depends totally on how the controller works. The vast majority of controllers in use today cannot control power directly only voltage. The throttle input is directly linked to the PWM duty cycle controlling motor voltage, motor phase current can be many times the battery current at throttle settings less than 100%....25% less throttle does not mean 25% less power etc.





---------------------------------
Posted using Tapatalk

 

[sapper44]

Thank you all for your replies can get on with finding my bike.

 

[tillson]

Ok, I work with the Police quite a bit with my job and i was discussing this issue last time i was in the Police station as i found some Traffic officers having a break. Basically they have better things to worry about "at the moment" If i were to pass them on my Oxygen they would look twice but would leave me alone. The limit of them leaving me alone is, if i were to keep up with other vehicles doing about 30mph. This is because more on safety rather than enforcement if that makes sense. They have more problems with dirt bikes, mini motos and kids on bikes than to worry about cyclists maybe having a 250w motor instead of a 200w or one that is throttle only rather than assist etc. Even if they did catch someone overpowering unless they were being rude, obnoxious and stand offish they would just give them a verbal saying get it sorted. If they caught someone riding reckless well that could be a different outcome

Should every man and his dog go out and buy a ebike or kit they would look at people riding responsibly. Even when a Police Motor cycle officer came in he was in agreement, they did add though that should they see someone on a ebike that looked cool at the side of the road they would stop and have a look and a chat not to see if it legal or ilegal but because they were being nosey.

Neighborhood officers said that they would be happier if these youths were on over powered electric bikes because it would cut down on the noise of ilegal dirt bikes that tear up the fields lol. Fair point i think there.

The overall jist i got was nah, they have more serious things to worry about and dodnt see it as an issue legal or not "yet"

The feeling i get from talking to other electric bike owners is they are worried. My assessment of this is because most owners have probably never had to deal with the Police before as they are honest law abiding people. My advice is ride responsible, assess the risk (safety gear) and just enjoy what you got.

I think all of the above reflects what is currently happening. Ebikes are very much a minority vehicle, the public at large know very little about them and no one is really bothered. Whilst ever the above circumstances exist, the Police will not actively be on the lookout for illegal Ebikes.

However, one thing that you can be certain of is this. If you are ever involved in a collision where someone sustains a serious injury, the Police will be all over your bike. The fact that it has a motor, whether legal or illegal will immediately attract attention and be the primary line of enquiry for the collision investigation unit. They will have the bike thoroughly examined for compliance with the law and if it is found not to comply, the owner, rider and maybe the supplier can expect to face the consequences. At worst, if you collide with someone who is frail and kill them (it has and does happen) and you are riding an illegal bike, you are likely to be facing a Death by Dangerous Driving or Manslaughter charge. Both of which will carry a custodial sentence. And on top of this, if your aren't "a man / woman of straw" you could end up having to pay a substantial sum in compensation. Don't think that you can rely on insurance to fund this, they won't want to know if the bike is illegal.

So, you can continue to enjoy your illegal bikes and no one will bother you. The above scenario is unlikely, but as each new illegal bike takes to the road, it becomes incrementally more likely and eventually, it will happen.

 

[indalo]

I concur with Tillson. It astonishes me that so many seem to enjoy and boast about riding illegal machines. If their needs are such that they require to travel faster or simply travel with greater power on two wheels, why don't they simply buy a moped, scooter or motor cycle?

Indalo

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I absolutely agree Tillson. Anthony Wolfson, who runs the City of London Police Bike Squad on his Wisper xc has said much the same to me.

As Jon says they will not be overly bothered with sensible riders on an electric bike with an off road button etc. However if one is involved in a serious RTA, especially if the police believe the rider was being reckless or careless, they will take the bike appart to ensure it is within the law. If it isn't they will prosecute.

We should remember, we have the benefit of a very valuable concession in that we can ride a powered vehicle on the road without any interference from the government. Let's not draw too much negative attention or we could find ourselves in a position where all electric bikes are treated like any other motor vehicle.

Regards

David

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I hope David (Wisper) won't mind me re-posting a comment from another discussion:

The European law we are harmonising with, says that throttle only can be used up to 6kph without the pedals turning, and it is absolutely legal to have a throttle on an EPAC as long as the pedals are turning.

Not at all Russ, it is also interesting to see there has been an increase in throttles appearing on European bikes over the last few months.

The advantage to a decent throttle/cadence set up on an electric bike is that the rider is able to choose the amount of power they require, even if they are not able to push hard on the pedals. I can only speak for Wisper but we intend to stay with throttle/cadence assist, we believe a decent set up using a cadence sensor and throttle is a better system than a torque sensor alone.

Our 2011/12 bikes are fitted with a "soft start" programme so even in maximum assist the power comes in over a second or so, this stops any chance of wheel spin etc. However if a rider prefers instant full power (starting in a hill) they can simply open the throttle to full which will bypass the "soft start". The full advantage of cadence/throttle control can be most appreciated when riding in one of the lower power settings. A rider can then chose exactly how much assistance they need simply by using the throttle to increase or decrease the power to the motor, without having to put more pressure in the pedals.... of course they can if they like, this system simply gives a rider more choice.

Of course there is a down side, as a rider doesn't have to put as much effort into pedaling their bike range can suffer. However once a rider is used to the system ranges can be better due to the fact that the rider is choosing exactly how much power they require in any situation.

All the best

David

 

[Alex728]

I think it will be a few years before the cops find e-bikes to be a problem, but it will eventually happen.

At the moment, the youngest riders of e-bikes are in their late 20s or 30s, they have made a concious decision to use an e-bike rather than a motor car or motor bike (often due to cost considerations / environmental views) and are the kind of young people mature enough to use the road in a sensible manner.

Other youths can't afford them (though it does look like the Wisper models are increasingly being eyed up by thieves) and currently lack the skills to buy a high power kit from an Oriental supplier and set it up.

However, this isn't always going to be the case! - Eventually, and it could be as soon as 5 years even quicker, the concept of e-bikes (as well as the vehicles themselves, by fair means or foul) will trickle down to youths including more sociopathic ones.

Youths learn quickly, both good and bad ones - I've seen lads who left high school with few qualifications learn within two years how to set up a sophisticated outdoor sound system for a rave, these same lads often ride dirt bikes and other mopeds, so I doubt that e-bikes are totally beyond them. However these are the sort of lads who are brought up expecting instant gratification will cut corners with stuff like safety procedures..

Only a couple of weeks ago I was having a conversation over breakfast with a former resident of Brixton, who noted how (push) bicycles went from being "transport for geeks" to becoming popular with youth gangs, (many of whom have become quite knowledgable about high end MTB's, whether or not they get them by legal means) something also backed up by recent crime reports from the Met!

 

[flecc]

Flecc, this is not true. It depends totally on how the controller works. The vast majority of controllers in use today cannot control power directly only voltage. The throttle input is directly linked to the PWM duty cycle controlling motor voltage, motor phase current can be many times the battery current at throttle settings less than 100%....25% less throttle does not mean 25% less power etc.

I'm aware of that of course, but you'll appreciate that it's a useless explanation for Lynda who is as she says, non-technical. Therefore I use a simplification of the bike's speed reduction process to produce an understandable explanation.

This issue keeps cropping up in this forum, some tech types even getting infuriated with me over it, one even leaving the forum! I insist the right way to answer questions is in an understandable way, technical for those who appreciate that and simplified, of necessity with some inaccuracy, for those who cannot appreciate the precise technical. There's plenty of educational precedent of course, for example the well known comparison of mains water with electricity to explain voltage and current.

After all, a technical answer that cannot be understood by the questioner is by definition a useless answer.




---------------------------------
Posted using Tapatalk [/QUOTE]

 

[Kudoscycles]

Oh my,before this posting I have put my flak jacket on and helmet.....well here goes....All the team here at Kudos had lengthy chats about throttles and boost buttons and whether they should be available,even as an option on any of the Kudos bikes-our major Chinese supplier is definite that the boost button will invalidate the EN15194 certificate,as that is the whole quality and fit for use guarantee,then as far as boost buttons these will not be available on Kudos cycles-I am convinced that if anyone was involved in an accident,and it does not have to be a serious one,if a boost button were fitted that would be the target of the prosecution-in these days of NO WIN,NO FEE lawyers that would be a gift to any prosecuting barrister.
When we started KudosCycles our insurers looked so closely at the product liability aspects of these bikes,the only fact that satisfied their inspectors was the EN15194 certificates-it was made quite plain that No EN15194,No liability insurance. You have to appreciate that this same insurance company covers product liability on our Parent companies rally car parts-vehicles that go along forest tracks at 150mph,but they were more concerned about certification of electric bikes-this raises a good point,how many of these 'come today,gone tomorrow e-bay dealers' have public or product liability insurance. Insurance is like a parachute,you may only need it once but you are glad it's there.
IN MY OPIONION BOOST BUTTONS,WHETHER MARKED FOR OFF ROAD USE OR OTHERWISE INVALIDATE EN15194 AND ARE THEREFORE ILLEGAL,BUYER BEWARE.
With regard to throttles I must say I am still not convinced these are fully legal but our SPORT bike has passed EN15194 with the throttle fitted-I have decided to compromise and fit the throttle on the bike but not connected-it will be made clear to all persons that if they connect the throttle they should only do so if they are personally satisfied that it is legal to do so. Throttles will not be fitted on any other Kudos bike. I appreciate this is a shame for I understand that those with limited mobility can find the throttle invaluable.
All those who have PM'd me asking if controllers can be tweaked or more powerful illegal motors can be fitted should be ashamed of themselves-if you viewed the situation in Asia,as I have,where teenagers all have high powered derestricted cycles,travelling silently often in the dark at 30 plus mph,the accidents are common and often fatal-our governments for once have shown some commensense,the EN 15194 rules are sensible and our government should hurry up and sign up to them.
Dave Elderfield
MD Kudoscycles
retired to my bunker!!!!

 

[indalo]

IN MY OPIONION BOOST BUTTONS,WHETHER MARKED FOR OFF ROAD USE OR OTHERWISE INVALIDATE EN15194 AND ARE THEREFORE ILLEGAL,BUYER BEWARE.

I have no idea if you're right or wrong. Indeed, only a test case in the law courts will establish precedent in this matter, in my opinion.

As far as I can understand matters, an off-road button,switch, turbo facility, call it what you will, is most likely out of keeping with the spirit of the legislation. Whether the fitment is legal or not, I really couldn't say.

Indalo

 

[Alex728]

All those who have PM'd me asking if controllers can be tweaked or more powerful illegal motors can be fitted should be ashamed of themselves-if you viewed the situation in Asia,as I have,where teenagers all have high powered derestricted cycles,travelling silently often in the dark at 30 plus mph,the accidents are common and often fatal-our governments for once have shown some commensense,the EN 15194 rules are sensible and our government should hurry up and sign up to them.

My extended family are from Malaysia, where they have come very close to banning all e-bikes outright due to paranoia over the high powered Chinese kits making their way over there.

they haven't banned them but there is a Government study being carried out at the very moment, which will almost certainly result in regulation.

http://bpa.bernama.com/details.php?id=1410

The electric bicycle will be accepted as a bicycle and the regulations governing it will not be very complicated but will follow international standards.

In neighbouring Singapore all e-bikes have to have a unique numbered plate showing that LTA (the equivalent of VOSA) has approved them. its not quite the same as a registration number as used on mopeds inasmuch as no central record appears to be kept of owners, but without this plate the bike is illegal and can be seized by cops!

 

[flecc]

With regard to throttles I must say I am still not convinced these are fully legal but our SPORT bike has passed EN15194 with the throttle fitted-I have decided to compromise and fit the throttle on the bike but not connected-it will be made clear to all persons that if they connect the throttle they should only do so if they are personally satisfied that it is legal to do so. Throttles will not be fitted on any other Kudos bike. I appreciate this is a shame for I understand that those with limited mobility can find the throttle invaluable.

I'm sure the key point is that they are legal when combined with pedelec and therefore only operating when the bike is pedalled Dave.

That's because they are then no different from the power level switching common on many bikes and entirely legal and compatible. For example the various power levels that can be switched to on the Wisper bikes, the Eco/standard/high power switched levels of the Panasonic system and the many stepped levels of the eZee EAF control. These are in effect just stepped throttles.

But the crucial thing is that the pedelec must override the throttle.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Before making my previous posting-I checked the EN15194 test report covering our KING bike,issued by SGS-CSTC ltd. These test reports are normally certified by SGS or TUV. The scope of the standard state-This European standard is intended to cover electrically power assisted cycles of a type which have a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25Kw,of which the output is progessively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25km'h or sooner,if the cyclist stops pedaling. The 'progressively reduced' wording would appear to outlaw those cycles which testers described as 'hit the wall at 15mph' or cycles where the controller has been tweaked to hit peak power at 14.9 mph,but I accept the wording is subject to interpretation.
Interestingly the EN15194 allows voltages up to 48v.
We had to present 4 sample bikes for the test.
Clause 4.2.6 Maximum speed for which the electric motor gives assistance....tested at 24.5kmh....passed.
The test is remarkably thorough,I am advised by my supplier that,because of the high cost involved,it is often faked in Asia-each test has a reference No so it's authenticity is easily checked.
Dave Elderfield
KudosCycles

 

[Kudoscycles]

Throttles

Flecc...I totally agree with you that you can only have power when the pedals are turning,the throttle is just another means,same as the power selection buttons of regulating that power. But reading through my e-mails most people want the throttle to operate independent of the pedals turning and clearly that is not available under EN15194. Similarly I presume that boost buttons would be ok provided they do not allow the bike to exceed 25 kmh,but again reading through my e-mails some people want the boost button to exceed that limit and that would be illegal.
I take this strong stance because I have spent considerable sums to ensure that my bikes meet EN15194 and are legal. To achieve the performance aspirations of some I would have to build illegal bikes,which I am not prepared to do,one day there will be an accident involving a bike with a boost button that allows 20mph,or thereabouts.
I don't know how a manufacturer can approve of the fitment of such a device when he knows that that button will render the bike illegal,I could not sleep at night with the legal implications that could be the result.
Dave Elderfield
KudosCycles

 

[flecc]

Yes, those are the demands which many make Dave, basically wanting a low powered pedal assist moped, but classes for such vehicles already exist, with registration.

Your position is correct and I completely support it, there is no future in supplying illegal e-bikes. An excess of demands for more and private implementations of that can only produce an enforcement crackdown that's in nobody's interest.

 

[Wisper Bikes]

I don't understand what the fuss is about, the regulations are amazingly simple.

Any bike with an "off road" or boost button that will enable the bike to exceed 25kph +10% with assistance from the motor....
or
Any bike that will exceed 25kph +10% with assistance from the motor....
or
Any bike that will exceed 6kph under throttle without the pedals being turned by the rider....

will not pass EN15194

If a bike satisfies all the other requirements set out in EN15194, and has a throttle that will independently propel the bike to 6kph without pedals being turned by the rider, after which the throttle will only work up to 25kph +10% if the rider is turning the pedals will pass EN15194.

All our bikes apart from the 805fe have this facility, every one has been tested by SGS, has passed and has the appropriate certification. Dave quite correctly says it has cost a fortune. 10 bikes in our range, 4 samples per bike sent to SGS (we have them back now but damaged beyond repair) and thousands of £'s per bike for testing and certification. We are not a huge firm and the 10's of thousands it has cost to have all our bikes certified was not entered into lightly, but now we have the certification I too can sleep at night!

I have already seen a bike with the wording "conforms to EN15194" on the frame. Again as Dave says, buyers should be wary, not all bikes will have been certified and will still carry such claims. To take an early stance against this tactic we have decided to print certificate numbers onto our frames so any one by simply calling SGS can check our certificates are valid and genuine.

All the best

David

 

[Tsakis]

Well I am one of the lot who wants more power and better high speed than 15mph.. I d be glad to register my bike as mopped though but this is not an option here in Greece. I want this bike because I indeed need to get faster to my errants and until recently I drove my 1000cc bike to do them, but my environmental and economical concerns combined with the lack of fitness I am experiencing now drove me towards an bike.

I will fit indicators and lights to my bike and I am planning to use a helmet as well, I also have a driving licence for all bikes.. So I don't think it is irresponsible from my side wanting a bike capable Of doing 25mph.. Q friend of mine does 40 mph with his unassisted racer and he is completely legal. If I were in the uk I would register and insure my bike if possible though...

 

[NRG]

I'm aware of that of course, but you'll appreciate that it's a useless explanation for Lynda who is as she says, non-technical. Therefore I use a simplification of the bike's speed reduction process to produce an understandable explanation.

This issue keeps cropping up in this forum, some tech types even getting infuriated with me over it, one even leaving the forum! I insist the right way to answer questions is in an understandable way, technical for those who appreciate that and simplified, of necessity with some inaccuracy, for those who cannot appreciate the precise technical. There's plenty of educational precedent of course, for example the well known comparison of mains water with electricity to explain voltage and current.

After all, a technical answer that cannot be understood by the questioner is by definition a useless answer.

Inappropriate at worse maybe...but I understand Flecc. I have to translate technical aspects on a daily basis but I try to include the technical side along with the translation as more often than not it gets passed on as fact and can also be read outside of the context it was made in leading to incorrect understanding. In our case the throttle controls motor speed with the power being constant within the limits of the controller. Anyhow enough from me....





---------------------------------
Posted using Tapatalk

 

[flecc]

It is a difficult area I agree NRG. I see the problem in this way:

To a scientist or engineer, accuracy is paramount.

To an educator, understanding is paramount.

Although I'm an engineer myself, I'm also a trained educator. Since we have a number of very competent engineers like yourself, d8veh et al in the forum, I leave the tech threads to you which you've probably noticed. I see my best role in answering the non-technical great majority, translating the technical into understandable ordinary language, since the pedelecs site is a populist one for the mass of the public.

 

[TwoBikes]

It may be true that, as David at Wisper says, the requirements of EN 15194 are amazingly simple, but they are not the law of the land in the UK (yet). EN 15194 is a standard (published in the UK as BS EN 15194:2009) which will not become compulsory here until it is made so by some piece of legislation, usually a statutory instrument.

Also, any company can claim compliance with EN 15194 if they really are complying with it. They only need a certificate to prove compliance in jurisdictions where this is compulsory. This does not yet include the UK. The requirements of insurers are a different matter.