Cameras for safety & insurance

[flecc]

Three killed after collision between car and HGV

A man was arrested and a fourth man is in hospital following the crash in Argyll and Bute.

www.bbc.co.uk

That spate of accidents I mentioned earlier. These are just the fatal ones.

It's impossible to get any equivalent news for England or any part of England for comparison purposes.

Whether that is due to them being comparatively favourable or unfavourable isn't known, or perhaps it;s just not newsworthy anymore.
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[guerney]

Cheap action cameras still have variable shutter speed normally but you may not have control of that. The fixed aperture means the action camera is toggling between shutter speed and ISO to get the correct brightness image.

"Aperture Priority" does the same on my Canon and Pentax, which of course have full manual modes - it's utterly bonkers that action cameras mostly don't, when they easily could. We don't all need to shoot slow mo surfing vids in sunny Hawaii.

Yi action cameras were often sold cheaply, sometimes as low as £20 and they have a 16MP high quality sensor and ambarella chipset but sadly no stabilization but they given fantastic video quality if you use a gimbal like one of the compact chest gimbals.

...and that would be yet another gizmo to charge before a ride. GoPro EIS pretty much dispenses with the need for gimbals. But they are just as useless as the cheapos in low light, judging by footage I've seen thus far on Youtube and Vimeo.

They often fake their image quality with high quality algorithms for eliminating grain, the resultant video looks great but aren't technically a true image or video compared to professional cameras.

Shallow depth of field fakery in particular, makes me laugh. It looks rubbish. Cellphone cameras and software is increasingly in the business of manufacturing alternative truths.

 

[georgehenry]

Are there statistics that show the differences in the fatality figures for different regions of the UK?

Is Scotland worse than elsewhere?

One anomaly of the new legislation about the gap cars should leave when overtaking a bike is that some cars now will not overtake me until they can leave a big gap, to the extent that there can be a small tail back of cars behind them, and when they eventually overtake leaving that large gap, most of the other cars come past much closer, perhaps venting their frustration.

I retired last October, but before I did almost always commuted to and from work on one of two electric bikes. I was a shift worker, but with start and finish times that could vary each day, though broadly separated into Earlier starts/finish times and later start/finish times.

One way I reduced my risk, and had a lot of fun in the bargain, was by going cross country to work to my later start time shifts avoiding interactions with cars almost completely, and then back on the road after midnight when the road was much quieter.

The road I cycled on was regarded as dangerous to cycle on, but from my perspective was only an issue at rush hour times. My early shift start times could be pretty early, so again the road was nice and quiet.

If you do a regular journey b bike. thinking about the risks you encounter, and how you might reduce them, can be a useful exercise.

 

[AndyBike]

Chili cam.

Certainly gives good image of number plates, day or night. Quite popular amongst the roadies i believe.

 

[Bogmonster666]

I'm all for that and my posts haven't in any way argued against it.

I'm arguing against the need to live on ones nerves as so many in here seem to do. Where's the pleasure in cycling in that state?
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I kind of get your last paragraph and the sentiment. I guess the issue is that your safety is in a stranger's hands. It is also true that I have an anxiety disorder so maybe overly worried about certain things. Living on my nerves is not a choice I can assure you, it's not something I would wish on my enemies.

However, it is also true that my wife was almost killed 5 years ago in an accident one mile down the road from where we live. She was in a car, not on a bike, but somebody drive into her driver side door at 50 to 60 mph after failing to stop at a crossroads. Three fire engines, one helicopter a pile of ambulances, many weeks in hospital and many more in a wheelchair - those skillful drivers sometimes aren't so skilled. She has three fractures to her pelvis (front and back), a broken sternum, broken ribs, punctured lung and bruising to internal organs and she had the benefit of side impact bars and side airbags.

Fire crews used props to support Hunters Lodge as casualties airlifted

The crash happened on the crossroads near Hunters Lodge

www.somersetlive.co.uk

For my own part, I am not adverse to risks. Unfortunately I have a fractured ankle at the moment after a bouldering wall accident. I usually cave regularly. I absolutely will be climbing again as soon as I can, but I still don't want to die in a pointless road accident so somebody can get where they are going a few seconds quicker. I'd rather take my calculated risks doing the things I really enjoy rather than the transport getting there. And I think that is the rub, with so many things, travelling to an activity is usually more dangerous than the activity itself.

Also, people who have been killed in road accidents are unlikely to be on this forum being snowflakes about it.

But I do agree, fear should not keep us off the road. But I also think there are a minority of bad drivers who take unacceptable risks with other people's lives and cyclists and other vulnerable road users tend to be more likely to be on the receiving end. Thankfully there are not masses of cycling fatalities, but I think too many people are put off cycling. In particular, in my opinion we need more people cycling as a mode of transport and as an alternative to driving - the environmental argument is quite clear to most people I think. Also, there are real heath benefits to cycling that I think outweigh the risks.

This is nothing personal, and thankfully the world is full of people with different perspectives. It would be a boring place if everybody always agreed with everybody else.

I don't think it helps to promote a more polarized them and as attitude between cyclists and drivers and I worry cameras risk promoting this. I have little interest (and too little time) in reporting every close pass so I am in two minds about cameras. On balance though, I think the most careless drivers do need to be encouraged to drive more responsibly, or better still, get on a bike instead.

 

[Bonzo Banana]

"Aperture Priority" does the same on my Canon and Pentax, which of course have full manual modes - it's utterly bonkers that action cameras mostly don't, when they easily could. We don't all need to shoot slow mo surfing vids in sunny Hawaii.



...and that would be yet another gizmo to charge before a ride. GoPro EIS pretty much dispenses with the need for gimbals. But they are just as useless as the cheapos in low light, judging by footage I've seen thus far on Youtube and Vimeo.



Shallow depth of field fakery in particular, makes me laugh. It looks rubbish. Cellphone cameras and software is increasingly in the business of manufacturing alternative truths.

No point in aperture priority on a fixed aperture action camera its always the same. I've not seen an action camera with variable aperture and even an expensive gopro is a fixed focus lens without focusing. There is nothing really going on mechanically with a action camera at all its a fully electronic device. Yet you can pick up a old Japanese compact camera at CEX for like £5 with decent zoom, focusing, macro and multiple apertures.

Up until recent models the Gopros mainly had a 12MP sensor but the little yi action camera was 16MP it really was capable of amazing video quality especially with its ambarella chipset but complete absense of stabilization meant as an action camera limited. I totally agree about gimbals. Some them had a USB output though and larger battery so could power the action camera for longer i.e. give extended battery life. You can combine the gimbal with digital gyro stabilization to get an ultra stabilized video. So even with gopro's some people still use an external gimbal.

As megapixels go up in a sensor their ability to absorb light reduces as there is less light falling on each pixel so some of the cheapest nastiest sensors can be good in low light.

So I guess a cheap action camera could be beneficial for night time cycling. If you managed to find one with the right type of sensor.

Also if you bought such a cheap action camera for night use maybe it would be beneficial to remove the infra red filter so you would record more of the heat signature. A car is likely producing some infra red at night especially at the front and this could be beneficial to capturing number plates more accurately.

 

[guerney]

Chili cam.
Certainly gives good image of number plates, day or night. Quite popular amongst the roadies i believe.

Thanks for your suggestion, but it overexposes number plates at night, just like mine does. Fast moving plates are blurry.

Unfortunately, all current action cameras are much of a muchness in low light conditions.

 

[guerney]

Also if you bought such a cheap action camera for night use maybe it would be beneficial to remove the infra red filter so you would record more of the heat signature. A car is likely producing some infra red at night especially at the front and this could be beneficial to capturing number plates more accurately.

I thought about doing that, but the shutter speed would likely be the same or similar - overexposed number plates will be further exposed, and the dark ones would still be blurry because shutter speed is too slow and not user assignable on my action camera.

I did a 10 second handheld night exposure using a CCD sensored compact about 10 years ago... the result was a completely black image, which was easily adjusted in Lightroom to reveal quite a nice clear photo. I'd prefer a very high shutter speed after which footage could be brightened if needed, to reveal clear albeit noisy non-blurry plates.

 

[guerney]

I use Zefal Dooback 2 end bar mirrors - they're the largest I could find. Very useful at night, as I don't have to look at them directly to see approaching car headlights in my peripheral vision, when headlights are switched on. They're also very robust, have survived a lot of bike fallings over and two collsions.

 

[guerney]

For some I think it depends on how good ones eye sight is, for instance the other thread with the Black Merc I saw CE where as the Op saw CL.

You been taking your Vitamin Bees

 

[matthewslack]

Thanks for your suggestion, but it overexposes number plates at night, just like mine does. Fast moving plates are blurry.

Unfortunately, all current action cameras are much of a muchness in low light conditions.

If the timestamp is right, that's 2007 footage. The current model might be better.

The opening sequence shows riding I would never contemplate.

 

[flecc]

Thankfully there are not masses of cycling fatalities

UK: 68 million population.

Average annual cycling deaths = 100

That's 0.000147%

And of that 100 who died, a large proportion either caused their own death or made a major contribution towards it. (Yes, I can back that up)

Yet a very high proportion of the population think cycling is very dangerous. And many who do cycle are festooning their bikes with cameras to record risks which I've shown are almost entirely imaginary.

You wish more would cycle, but they are never going to while this situation of near universal gross exaggeration about the dangers persists.

Cycling in this country, even as it is being done now, is very safe, fact. That is the message that should be promoted loud and clear, not all the anti-driver propaganda and camera use that exaggerates their risk to cyclists.

The greatest possible reduction in the few cycling accidents there are would be if the cyclists themselves changed some of their cycling habits and took more responsibility for their own primary safety.
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[guerney]

If the timestamp is right, that's 2007 footage. The current model might be better.

The opening sequence shows riding I would never contemplate.

Yes that's quite mad riding, and would be impossible because of Zefal wing mirrors on the ends of my wide handlebar. The Zefals fold, but the handlebar doesn't thank goodness... at least not in that direction.

I had a look at the Chilli Cam Mk II manual, there are no user assignable settings whatsoever for shutter, ISO, metering, exposure etc. Fully auto. So if it turns out to be useless for recording number plates at night (highly likely IMHO), I would have to send it back for landfill or resale.

 

[matthewslack]

For me, 'cycling is safe' would mean that anyone could jump on a bike and ride anywhere on our roads without fear of coming to harm at the hands of other road users.

I'd agree that the cyclist should have basic knowledge of road craft like cycle proficiency test or its current equivalent, and ride in accordance with it, but beyond that the lack of fear has to come from care and space willingly given by motorised road users.

I don't accept that death rates give a true measure of safety. They are the tip of an iceberg. Injuries run at about 100 times deaths, collisions without injury will be higher still, and frightening occurrences without collision even higher.

If we want to increase cycling, the fear has to go, not be accepted and normalised.

Reported road casualties Great Britain, provisional results: 2021

www.gov.uk

 

[guerney]

For me, 'cycling is safe' would mean that anyone could jump on a bike and ride anywhere on our roads without fear of coming to harm at the hands of other road users.

I'd agree that the cyclist should have basic knowledge of road craft like cycle proficiency test or its current equivalent, and ride in accordance with it, but beyond that the lack of fear has to come from care and space willingly given by motorised road users.

I don't accept that death rates give a true measure of safety. They are the tip of an iceberg. Injuries run at about 100 times deaths, collisions without injury will be higher still, and frightening occurrences without collision even higher.

If we want to increase cycling, the fear has to go, not be accepted and normalised.

Reported road casualties Great Britain, provisional results: 2021

www.gov.uk

Crumbs... Despite being a comparatively miniscule minority, pedal cyclist fatalities are 1/6th to that of car occupants: 113 vs 686

 

[Bonzo Banana]

I thought about doing that, but the shutter speed would likely be the same or similar - overexposed number plates will be further exposed, and the dark ones would still be blurry because shutter speed is too slow and not user assignable on my action camera.

I did a 10 second handheld night exposure using a CCD sensored compact about 10 years ago... the result was a completely black image, which was easily adjusted in Lightroom to reveal quite a nice clear photo. I'd prefer a very high shutter speed after which footage could be brightened if needed, to reveal clear albeit noisy non-blurry plates.

I think generally infra red improves night time shots. Is there no way on your camera to force a higher ISO in order to make the shutter speed quicker and reduce blurring? I think high grain is better for seeing number plates than too long a shutter speed. I'll admit though I don't have much practical experience its all theoretical. How about light measurement is there anyway to change light measurement so its overall image rather than centred or some other option like the reverse of that. I forget how many options there are for light measurement and of course this varies completely by action camera. Most probably don't give you that option.

Just looking at a action camera I have nearby, it has 3 settings for metering; high, medium and low plus ISO settings all the way to 6400. Surely at 6400 it would force the shutter speed to be fairly fast even at night and the 3 metering options could give different results one of which could be better for night use.

 

[guerney]

I think generally infra red improves night time shots. Is there no way on your camera to force a higher ISO in order to make the shutter speed quicker and reduce blurring? I think high grain is better for seeing number plates than too long a shutter speed. I'll admit though I don't have much practical experience its all theoretical. How about light measurement is there anyway to change light measurement so its overall image rather than centred or some other option like the reverse of that. I forget how many options there are for light measurement and of course this varies completely by action camera. Most probably don't give you that option.

Just looking at a action camera I have nearby, it has 3 settings for metering; high, medium and low plus ISO settings all the way to 6400. Surely at 6400 it would force the shutter speed to be fairly fast even at night and the 3 metering options could give different results one of which could be better for night use.

I've tried all metering modes to no avail - shutter is too slow. Blur reduces file size using that codec. ISO 6400 is what I use at night. I've also tried all the exposure settings. On proper cameras, graininess still leaves number plates legible. If I can't find an alternative, I'll have to try a GoPro version which has manual shutter and ISO control, and if it doesn't capture number plates with my bike's headlight setup, send the GoPro back to be landfilled or resold.

It's highly irritating that I can manually set ISO, metering, exposure, but not the shutter speed! Also I can't set file size limit - it'd be handy to have small segments of say 100mb, instead of 3.5gb!

 

[StuartsProjects]

I don't accept that death rates give a true measure of safety. They are the tip of an iceberg. Injuries run at about 100 times deaths, collisions without injury will be higher still, and frightening occurrences without collision even higher.

I agree, just looking at the death rate per year, is not the whole picture at all.

I believe the average number of serious injuries cycling was around 4,300 per year, 2004 to 2020.

So if you look at a typical cycling life of 50 years, then there would be 215,200 serious injuries in that period, thats a lot of cyclists.

 

[flecc]

I agree, just looking at the death rate per year, is not the whole picture at all.

I believe the average number of serious injuries cycling was around 4,300 per year, 2004 to 2020.

So if you look at a typical cycling life of 50 years, then there would be 215,200 serious injuries in that period, thats a lot of cyclists.

Deaths are the only reliable statistic, it's an absolute.

Any fracture has to be recorded as a serious injury, even a crack in the bone of the little finger. That of course is why RoSPA and the government love recording KSI (Killed and Seriously Injured) and often hide the number of deaths, since it grossly inflates the true situation, which of course is their agenda.

That is one major reason why cycling refuses to really take off as transport in Britain, this constant propaganda, even by cyclists themselves, to promote the idea that cycling is very dangerous. It just puts people off trying it and convinces them they shouldn't even allow their kids to cycle.

It isn't dangerous, its quite safe in fact and would be almost entirely safe if our cyclists changed some of their current habits. Cycling has never hurt me in any way in 70 years of it, do you really think that is a miracle?

It's not, it just comes from cycling sensibly, something far too few cyclists do.
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[guerney]

It'd useful to know if designing and making a fully enclosed cabin for bicycles, with side impact bars, is worth the effort. What injuries do cyclists get? Mangled legs, cracked skulls, shattered elbows? And in what proportion? Are cyclist injuries similar those of motorcylists, of which there may be more data?

My recent experience of hauling myself + bike + Bafang bbs01b 15A conversion kit with battery + trailer + cargo = 174kg up steep hills, tells me that a fully enclosed bicycle cabin minus my bodyweight is a technically plausible possibility. A cabin weighing about 80kg max really would be ok, I think - this was a complete unknown before I started heaving spring water to my garden from nearby hills. After years of this being something I occasionally thought about, I had a eureka moment this morning for a good design which should be largely easy to construct, and could go some way towards making cyclists as safe as car drivers in collisions. But would it be worth the effort, and would the cycling population at large be interested in buying such an object, or it's design plans to make their own? If nothing is patentable, I'll open source it.

I won't go into the details of my eureka moment or it's actual design, but here's an amusing rough sketch of it's general shape. The lighter green part which I've approximately filled in (not it's actual intended shape), may have to be plexiglass, which will be difficult and expensive to form or get made. Plus side impact bars to protect legs, plus another. It'll fit most bicycles.

Let's face it - it's got as much chance of being mass produced, as similar products Sinclair keep taking pre-orders for.