Buying my first e-bike

[Peter Thornton]

If you were/are an enthusiastic cyclist looking to do a decent days riding then range will be a problem.
I did my first full day yesterday and the battery gave up just as I reached the top of my drive on the way home - 46 miles with a mixture of Eco, Tour and Turbo for some of the hills. I was consciously trying to save the battery for the second half of the trip. That's a 500 battery with a Bosch motor (Kalkhoff Pro Connect B10)
To have a good day out and no concerns would really need a battery of twice the capacity.
The problem is that the bike is such a heavy lump when the battery dies!
They reckon that the Saturn moon rocket had to carry so much fuel in order to give enough power to carry the big load of fuel, and you can get to a similar situation with an ebike.
One thing I've not seen are any indications that pubs etc welcome bikes bringing in batteries to charge over lunch/drinks. Maybe Bosch or some other manufacturer or industry body should compile a database with window stickers. It would help with planning rides and would be a distinct advantage to the pub/ cafe I'd have thought?
I'm very fond of my new ebike but recognise that they are at an early stage in their evolution and looking forward to seeing next years Bosch bikes.
So, get the biggest battery you can and maybe pay some attention to what they are like with the power turned off.

 

[Danidl]

If you were/are an enthusiastic cyclist looking to do a decent days riding then range will be a problem.
I did my first full day yesterday and the battery gave up just as I reached the top of my drive on the way home - 46 miles with a mixture of Eco, Tour and Turbo for some of the hills. I was consciously trying to save the battery for the second half of the trip. That's a 500 battery with a Bosch motor (Kalkhoff Pro Connect B10)
To have a good day out and no concerns would really need a battery of twice the capacity.
The problem is that the bike is such a heavy lump when the battery dies!
They reckon that the Saturn moon rocket had to carry so much fuel in order to give enough power to carry the big load of fuel, and you can get to a similar situation with an ebike.
One thing I've not seen are any indications that pubs etc welcome bikes bringing in batteries to charge over lunch/drinks. Maybe Bosch or some other manufacturer or industry body should compile a database with window stickers. It would help with planning rides and would be a distinct advantage to the pub/ cafe I'd have thought?
I'm very fond of my new ebike but recognise that they are at an early stage in their evolution and looking forward to seeing next years Bosch bikes.
So, get the biggest battery you can and maybe pay some attention to what they are like with the power turned off.

.. that's a very good idea , many pub owners would or should be interested in getting that crowd in. Stickers seems a brilliant idea.
I tried my Motus yesterday for a while with the power off and was pleasantly surprised , on the level and down hill fine, only on upward slopes did I feel the need for power. I did a 42 km run , at 20 km HR AVG with half the battery remaining. Mind you the winds were slack. My suggestion to myself is to start the run in future on eco and tour and only go to the higher modes when tiring on the return

 

[Peter Thornton]

.. My suggestion to myself is to start the run in future on eco and tour and only go to the higher modes when tiring on the return

Having tried it the other way round, I would definitely agree!

 

[Deleted member 4366]

.. that's a very good idea , many pub owners would or should be interested in getting that crowd in. Stickers seems a brilliant idea.

two forum members, Funky Lynne and Morphix tried to start that with The Cycle Charge scheme. they made some good progress, but then they both had health problems, so it fizzled out.

here's the website:

http://www.cyclecharge.org.uk/

 

[Danidl]

two forum members, Funky Lynne and Morphix tried to start that with The Cycle Charge scheme. they made some good progress, but then they both had health problems, so it fizzled out.

here's the website:

http://www.cyclecharge.org.uk/

Remember when Starbucks had mobile phone charger leads, to encourage people to hang around. These seem to have disappeared now. All it needs is a few more sockets in the pubs or coffee shops and it would encourage ecyclists to hang around. The power cost to the owner would be negligible. Peak power cost a largest battery would cost 15 pence and 5 hrs ,.. you take a lot of coffee and Cornish pasties in that time

 

[RobF]

If you were/are an enthusiastic cyclist looking to do a decent days riding then range will be a problem.
I did my first full day yesterday and the battery gave up just as I reached the top of my drive on the way home - 46 miles with a mixture of Eco, Tour and Turbo for some of the hills. I was consciously trying to save the battery for the second half of the trip. That's a 500 battery with a Bosch motor (Kalkhoff Pro Connect B10)
To have a good day out and no concerns would really need a battery of twice the capacity.
The problem is that the bike is such a heavy lump when the battery dies!
They reckon that the Saturn moon rocket had to carry so much fuel in order to give enough power to carry the big load of fuel, and you can get to a similar situation with an ebike.
One thing I've not seen are any indications that pubs etc welcome bikes bringing in batteries to charge over lunch/drinks. Maybe Bosch or some other manufacturer or industry body should compile a database with window stickers. It would help with planning rides and would be a distinct advantage to the pub/ cafe I'd have thought?
I'm very fond of my new ebike but recognise that they are at an early stage in their evolution and looking forward to seeing next years Bosch bikes.
So, get the biggest battery you can and maybe pay some attention to what they are like with the power turned off.

Don't expect to see much development in just a year.

The Bosch system was launched in 2009/10, the motors are effectively still the same, but there's now a bigger battery.

So in about eight years we've gained 100wh of battery capacity.

 

[E-Wheels]

Don't expect too see much development in just a year.

The Bosch system was launched in 2009/10, the motors are effectively still the same, but there's now a bigger battery.

So in about eight years we've gained 100wh of battery capacity.

Could the reason be "if it's not broke, then don't fix it"

 

[Peter Thornton]

Next years motor has a standard size drive sprocket, which may mean slightly easier pedalling as one less set of gears to go through. Small improvements but important, and the batteries have been developed to fit better with the frame.
Not earth shattering, but this whole market is developing quickly and with competition from Japan and China .........?

 

[Camping Cathy]

Thanks for all your great tips and suggestions: I've learnt a lot.

I'm still no nearer knowing what to buy, my short list has got even longer!

But I do feel more informed, and I think I have a better idea what to look for (eg at least 500 wh battery and a 4A charger.)

I am however more confused about hub vs crank/mid motor and which would suit me best.... but one of the clearest message is to go out and test drive as many as possible. Sadly I've not got time to do this for a few weeks, but in the meantime I'm enjoying getting out again on short trips on my non- ebike.

I'll report back when I've eventually managed to do some test rides and hopefully made a purchase. At that point I'll know to take my charger with me, and have lots of tea (or beer) stops so that I can hopefully recharge batteries (The bike's and mine if I've switched the battery off a lot to conserve power)

Thanks again

 

[RobF]

Next years motor has a standard size drive sprocket, which may mean slightly easier pedalling as one less set of gears to go through. Small improvements but important, and the batteries have been developed to fit better with the frame.
Not earth shattering, but this whole market is developing quickly and with competition from Japan and China .........?

The original Classic motor had a standard chain ring, so Bosch is going back to the future there.

Twin batteries (I have one of those) better battery integration and the like is largely window dressing.

The key pedal assist experience remains largely unaltered in eight years.

In that respect ebikes are the same as pushbikes, new models every year but no significant leaps forward from one decade to the next.

 

[Danidl]

The original Classic motor had a standard chain ring, so Bosch is going back to the future there.

Twin batteries (I have one of those) better battery integration and the like is largely window dressing.

The key pedal assist experience remains largely unaltered in eight years.

In that respect ebikes are the same as pushbikes, new models every year but no significant leaps forward from one decade to the next.

.. when a machine is as optimised as the bike has become, major improvements are few and far between.
Marginal difference in weight.
Slightly higher pressure in tyres
Slightly better tyres. Slightly better wheels,
Perhaps the last major innovation, prior to ebikes was the invention of the Moulton in 1960.
What has happened is that bikes have moved from a utility to a luxury toy. Similar to what happened with horses 100 years ago So one gets more variants , the chopper, BMX , MTBs , racing bikes ,
The major changes in ebikes have already occured. The change from brushed DC motors to brushless AC motors, the change from lead acid to NiMH and now Li ion . So unless there is a major new energy storage technology, any changes now will be incremental.
. What the ebike industry is trying to do is position itself into two different streams , a commuter stream , interested in removing air pollution for urban transport and an adventure toy stream interested in climbing mountains.
So what innovations to come. .. slightly better batteries probably going up to 45v, , slightly more sophisticated controllers with better algorithms, slightly better motors.

 

[Trevormonty]

Thanks for all your great tips and suggestions: I've learnt a lot.

I'm still no nearer knowing what to buy, my short list has got even longer!

But I do feel more informed, and I think I have a better idea what to look for (eg at least 500 wh battery and a 4A charger.)

I am however more confused about hub vs crank/mid motor and which would suit me best.... but one of the clearest message is to go out and test drive as many as possible. Sadly I've not got time to do this for a few weeks, but in the meantime I'm enjoying getting out again on short trips on my non- ebike.

I'll report back when I've eventually managed to do some test rides and hopefully made a purchase. At that point I'll know to take my charger with me, and have lots of tea (or beer) stops so that I can hopefully recharge batteries (The bike's and mine if I've switched the battery off a lot to conserve power)

Thanks again

Middrives are more energy efficient as they use bikes gears to maintain their optimum rpm.
Hubs only have onr gear while asking motor to run at large rpm range.
Its like comparing cars with 5spd gearbox vs 1spd gearbox.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

Middrives are more energy efficient as they use bikes gears to maintain their optimum rpm.
Hubs only have onr gear while asking motor to run at large rpm range.
Its like comparing cars with 5spd gearbox vs 1spd gearbox.

Actual data shows that crank drives are no more efficient than hub-motors. In fact the only published data I've seen showed the opposite.

 

[GLJoe]

Could the reason be "if it's not broke, then don't fix it"

Doubtful. There simply isn't an easy way to progress forward at the moment. If Bosch could do things like double the motor power and quadruple the battery capacity (the latter being something that we really could do with), you can bet they would do it.

 

[Crockers]

Look at mobile phones. They didn't take off until batteries were developed to make them light. After that the developers threw their hats in big time to produce hand held computers.

With ebikes, the major development required is for a battery at half the weight and twice the power. Once that happens, motors will get smaller but as powerful as laws permit. Then ebikes will be pretty much indistinguishable from ordinary bikes and will be far more popular.

But batteries need to be improved first..........

 

[Peter Thornton]

And there is a multi billion dollar industry trying to do just this ........

 

[Trevormonty]

And there is a multi billion dollar industry trying to do just this ........

We can thank ecar industry especially tesla for a massive cash injection into battery technology. Ebikes, eHelicopters (yes they have finally made it to commercial production) and ePlanes will all be possible with new battery and engine technology.

 

[Danidl]

We can thank ecar industry especially tesla for a massive cash injection into battery technology. Ebikes, eHelicopters (yes they have finally made it to commercial production) and ePlanes will all be possible with new battery and engine technology.

.. it's hard to see how there would be new motor technologies. Electrical machine design is 150 years old , so is pretty mature, Innovations in mature industries is slow. . One can hope for assistance from the material scientists. one could envisage stronger magnets, iron less cores and aluminium wiring to reduce weight, and maybe different bearing materials allowing faster running, but a motor can only get to 100% efficiency and they are nearly there.

Cars bikes and aircraft have completely different requirements in batteries. In a car time to recharge is as important as capacity and weight less important. In a bike capacity and low weight are important, time to recharge less so. In an aircraft energy density is most important and battery lifetime and self discharge irrelevant.
The analogy with pcs and smartphones is not appropriate. The dramatic improvement in performance in microelectronics, was due to the ability to scale down the dimensions of the circuits. This meant that more circuits could fit on a single wafer, that the structures could be more complex in each circuit and because failure in production is dependent on the area of a chip, the yield of useful chips increases as the size decreases.

 

[Woosh]

I am however more confused about hub vs crank/mid motor and which would suit me best....

one thing is fairly well proven, compared to bikes with mid motor, the cost of ownership of a bike with hub motor is consistently lower and the ride is more relaxed.

 

[Danidl]

one thing is fairly well proven, compared to bikes with mid motor, the cost of ownership of a bike with hub motor is consistently lower and the ride is more relaxed.

Woosh, may I suggest.as trump might An alternate truth....
Hub motored bikes are less expensive and still reliable. The ride is less like riding a bike and more like riding a scooter. Whether this is what you want is purely a personal preference. I prefer the more authentic feel from a mid motored unit.
The effect from a hub motor is like someone pushing you at constant speed from the back. .. just like when you were a kid and getting a shunt. The effect from a mid motor is that your legs have just got a lot stronger.