Buy local (lancashire) or mail order?

[The Maestro]

Hi, I'm new to the forum. Recent circumstances mean I can't drive a car or motorbike so I'm after an electric bike or pedelec for my 20 mile round trip commute to work. I am very fit and could do it on a normal bike but it would be a real pain on those days when I had a bit of a cold, hangover or knackered for some other reason. Because its going to be my main form of transport its got to be fairly reliable and stand up to bad weather etc.

I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any good pedelec/e-bike sellers in the North-West of England? I've searched the forum already and came up with two:

Apple BIkes in Lytham St. Annes who stock the 'Giant' range
Valley Scooters in Bolton that sell the PowaByke, PowaCycle and Urban Mover ranges

At the moment I'm leaning towards the Powercycle Salisbury. I like the look of the Kalkhoff range and maybe the Ezee Liv but all the dealers are 'dahn sowf' and I'm not sure if mail order is a good idea. I've exchanged a few emails with 50Cycles but they didn't really answer my questions and I find their extended warranty which costs 100 pounds a year just to cover shipping costs in the event of a problem VERY off putting to say the least. Its like they are expecting every bike to need shipping back 3 times a year! Are electric bikes still very much a 'work in progress', i.e. 'expect problems' or are they a reliable transport method?

Anyway any advice is greatly appreciated

 

[carpetbagger]

welcome to the forum,A1 motors in Accrington Darwen and Burnley stock Powabykes and Redline Garage at Cabus Garstang also advertise them.AE Hargreaves at clitheroe also stock some electric bikes but not sure which.I don't know about any other bikes.Three new Powabykes out shortly so don't rush into it.

 

[Kal]

Hi, I'm new to the forum. Recent circumstances mean I can't drive a car or motorbike so I'm after an electric bike or pedelec for my 20 mile round trip commute to work. I am very fit and could do it on a normal bike but it would be a real pain on those days when I had a bit of a cold, hangover or knackered for some other reason. Because its going to be my main form of transport its got to be fairly reliable and stand up to bad weather etc.

I'm just wondering if anyone knows of any good pedelec/e-bike sellers in the North-West of England? I've searched the forum already and came up with two:

Apple BIkes in Lytham St. Annes who stock the 'Giant' range
Valley Scooters in Bolton that sell the PowaByke, PowaCycle and Urban Mover ranges

At the moment I'm leaning towards the Powercycle Salisbury. I like the look of the Kalkhoff range and maybe the Ezee Liv but all the dealers are 'dahn sowf' and I'm not sure if mail order is a good idea. I've exchanged a few emails with 50Cycles but they didn't really answer my questions and I find their extended warranty which costs 100 pounds a year just to cover shipping costs in the event of a problem VERY off putting to say the least. Its like they are expecting every bike to need shipping back 3 times a year! Are electric bikes still very much a 'work in progress', i.e. 'expect problems' or are they a reliable transport method?

Anyway any advice is greatly appreciated

Welcome to The Maestro!

Your new e-bike will be used for to commute to work so reliability should be your main priority in which case I think buying local would be the best option for you. Some people do have problems with their electric bikes and if things go wrong then buying locally would enable you to get things sorted out more quickly and with the least amount of hassle. Buying off-line you have the advantage of being able to compare and try the bikes for size and performance.

PowaBykes are good reliable machines and good hill climbers. In this case I personally would go for the basic 6 speed lead battery model. Upgrading to a lithium battery makes this bike too expensive in my opinion. As carpetbagger says new bikes out soon but more expensive no doubt.

The PowaCycle Salisbury is one of the lowest powered electric bikes but is reliable and is cheap. This e-bike has a good range and would be fine if you don't have any steep hills to climb on your commute. Choice of battery too.

When I was researching cheap e-bikes I had the PowaCycle Salisbury on my shortlist. I live in a very hilly area so chose the cheaper more powerful yet still modestly powered Synergie Mistral instead. I have been very pleased with the 36v Lithium Mistral that I have now owned for over two months and have done around 650 miles without any problems except for the useless dynamo lighting. This bike may not be suitable for you because it was an eBay purchase.

Ezee Liv would be a good and not too expensive choice too but would be an online purchase.

Kalkhoff are thought to be, by many enthusiasts, the best pedelec available right now. These use the Panasonic system replacing the now out-of-production Giant Lafree. This system is the best for hill climbing but Kalkhoff are expensive.

One thing I would miss is the throttle control on my Mistral, this is not always included even on expensive machines. E-bikes with throttles give you the choice of going for miles on the flat without having to turn the pedals, make pulling away smooth and give you more control all round.
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[Django]

Hi Maestro,

There isn't a simple answer, but my experience tells me that your relationship with the supplier will be very important indeed. That is a good reason to buy local or at the very least to visit, talk to and test ride before purchasing from an online supplier. You need to be able to trust them.

Have you considered buying second hand? Unless you have very steep hills and given your description of yourself as 'very fit', you may find a Mark 1 Torq ideal. I'm not sure I would be happy with 15mph now that I am used to zipping along at over 20mph and I suspect you may be similar.

 

[stokepa31_mk2]

Welcome to The Maestro!

Your new e-bike will be used for to commute to work so reliability should be your main priority in which case I think buying local would be the best option for you. Some people do have problems with their electric bikes and if things go wrong then buying locally would enable you to get things sorted out more quickly and with the least amount of hassle. Buying off-line you have the advantage of being able to compare and try the bikes for size and performance..

I agree strongly here. when my wheel needed to be respoked none of my local shops waned to touch my torq 2. This meant I had to get it to loughborough for 50c to fix. even with their quick turnaound on the work, my diary etc meant I was off the road for over a week and im only a 40 min drive from them.

on a long commute i would really want a throttle for those mornings when you just cant be bothered or are hung over or under the weather.

all my research pointed me to the torq as i live in a flattish area and like to go fast. Ive not tried the wispers although ive not heard much bad about them and may get one next. I think Harry has found his agattu is about the same time wise on a long commute when compared to the torq but has since modded the gears. will be interesting to see the results when his wheel is fixed. (have I got that right Harry or am I miss remebering what ive read)

so for me, even if i lived next door to powabyke i'd still go for a torq or agattu or wisper depending on what I wanted out of the bike.

All that may change when the new models come out and we live (or rather ride) in an ever evolving world.

Regards
Paul

 

[HarryB]

I think Harry has found his agattu is about the same time wise on a long commute when compared to the torq but has since modded the gears. will be interesting to see the results when his wheel is fixed. (have I got that right Harry or am I miss remebering what ive read)

Yes that is right. Robert44 and myself are still waiting for wheels/hubs to come from Kahlkoff. No sign of them yet.

I am expecting the Agattu to be marginally faster than a restricted Torq 1 but it cannot compete with the Torq 1 when de-restricted.

 

[The Maestro]

Hi Maestro,

There isn't a simple answer, but my experience tells me that your relationship with the supplier will be very important indeed. That is a good reason to buy local or at the very least to visit, talk to and test ride before purchasing from an online supplier. You need to be able to trust them.

Have you considered buying second hand? Unless you have very steep hills and given your description of yourself as 'very fit', you may find a Mark 1 Torq ideal. I'm not sure I would be happy with 15mph now that I am used to zipping along at over 20mph and I suspect you may be similar.

Yep I think the 15 mph cut-out could make the bike a bit pointless a lot of the time since I'd generally be doing above that on the flat anyway. My trip to work is very flat. If I was cycling normally on my Marin bike I'd be doing 25+ for reasonably chunks of the trip. I'd like to be able to do that but not get sweaty. I also agree with the other poster who said that a throttle would be essential for those days when I'm really not up to it.

I like the look of the Wisper 905se at the moment because it looks pretty cool and has 20mph derestricted mode. Problems are its a bit pricey and the company are a very long way from me. I'm trying to find out what their returns policy is or if they have any local dealers near me.

The Torq you mention also sounds good but I've not had much luck locating any decent bikes second hand, the ones on ebay look a bit like old heath-robinson affairs.

The bikes I can get locally are Giants, PowaCycle, powabyke and urban mover. At the moment the Salisbury is still winning out if only because of the throttle and decent range. On most days I suspect I'd find the 15mph cut off a pain though. Is there any scope for derestricing any of these brands?

 

[The Maestro]

Yes that is right. Robert44 and myself are still waiting for wheels/hubs to come from Kahlkoff. No sign of them yet.

I am expecting the Agattu to be marginally faster than a restricted Torq 1 but it cannot compete with the Torq 1 when de-restricted.

Torq is and Ezee bike right? Are the nature of the changes you are making to the Agattu to make it provide power assist at greater speeds? Is is a bit job to modify it?

 

[frank9755]

I'd advise you to try any bike carefully before buying, ideally with a computer so you can see the speed you are doing.

Bikes like the powacycle, and the others you mention are available locally, can't be derestricted. If you can cycle at 25 or even 20 mph on the flat on a normal bike, I think you will find most electric bikes unsuitable! Even on a Mark 1 Torq you will not be able to go that fast. You'll be spending most of your time above the assisted range, so you won't benefit from the power, and they will not be as pleasant to ride unpowered as your current bike. For example owners report that the Torq 1 provides good assistance to 22mph but is very hard to pedal faster than that due to factors such as motor resistance.

Good luck with your search, but I fear that, unless you are happy to go a lot slower than on your normal bike, you may not find an electric bike that meets your needs.

 

[The Maestro]

I'd advise you to try any bike carefully before buying, ideally with a computer so you can see the speed you are doing.

Bikes like the powacycle, and the others you mention are available locally, can't be derestricted. If you can cycle at 25 or even 20 mph on the flat on a normal bike, I think you will find most electric bikes unsuitable! Even on a Mark 1 Torq you will not be able to go that fast. You'll be spending most of your time above the assisted range, so you won't benefit from the power, and they will not be as pleasant to ride unpowered as your current bike. For example owners report that the Torq 1 provides good assistance to 22mph but is very hard to pedal faster than that due to factors such as motor resistance.

Good luck with your search, but I fear that, unless you are happy to go a lot slower than on your normal bike, you may not find an electric bike that meets your needs.

I guess in that case buying a cheap one with a throttle would be my best bet.

 

[fishingpaul]

welcome to the forum maestro,as you sound like a strong rider i think a panasonic powered bike would probably be most suitable, eg kalkhoff but these are not cheap at well over £1000,they ride much like a normal bike but are a bit heavier,i think the extra drag from a hub motor would not suit your needs, a bike such as a powacycle salisbury with 6 gears or so would take an awfull lot of effort to reach 25mph on the flat,also the drag from the hub motor can feel like sticking brakes on some bikes.

 

[Kal]

I guess in that case buying a cheap one with a throttle would be my best bet.

I'd advise you to try any bike carefully before buying, ideally with a computer so you can see the speed you are doing.

Bikes like the powacycle, and the others you mention are available locally, can't be derestricted. If you can cycle at 25 or even 20 mph on the flat on a normal bike, I think you will find most electric bikes unsuitable! Even on a Mark 1 Torq you will not be able to go that fast. You'll be spending most of your time above the assisted range, so you won't benefit from the power, and they will not be as pleasant to ride unpowered as your current bike. For example owners report that the Torq 1 provides good assistance to 22mph but is very hard to pedal faster than that due to factors such as motor resistance.

Good luck with your search, but I fear that, unless you are happy to go a lot slower than on your normal bike, you may not find an electric bike that meets your needs.

I agree a cheap e-bike like my 36v Li-ion Synergie G2 Mistral is not fast. However, it does come straight out-of-the-box de-restricted and will travel along the flat at 15+ mph on throttle alone carrying my weight 65 kg (10.5 stones) and has a range of at least 33 miles in pedelec mode. I heard one person rode for 20 miles on throttle alone on one charge!.. must have been flat country I would think. My average speed on a 33 mile round trip of hilly terrain was 12 mph. This is easy riding even for me at age 66 years but it's useless trying to race the hub motor.. it chooses it's own pace and like the Torq 1 quoted above "is very hard to pedal faster due to factors such as motor resistance". All this from an e-bike costing only £450.

Many popular electric bikes cost more than twice the price of my Mistral. Average speed is a very important factor for a commuter such as "The Maestro" to decide which electric bike to purchase.. anyone know if/where this speed information is posted?
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[flecc]

The only place you'll find average speeds published for a range of e-bikes is in A to B's road tests, where they usually report them.

Of course it's not a reliable measure anyway, since so much depends on the rider's ability.
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[Kal]

The only place you'll find average speeds published for a range of e-bikes is in A to B's road tests, where they usually report them.

Of course it's not a reliable measure anyway, since so much depends on the rider's ability.
.

Thanks flecc.. I was just researching the question myself and found A to B's road tests. Your own website is also an invaluable resource for a guide to the performance on a range popular electric bikes.

As you say speed depends on many factors.. weight of rider.. age.. fitness.. wind speed etc.,


This is the information I found:

Powabyke: source A to B magazine
Assisted average speed - close to 15 mph

Torq (de-restricted): source 50cycles - extracts from A to B review
Assisted average speed - "flattish 9 mile" - 19.6 mph, pedalling with "reasonable enthusiasm"

Synergie Mistral:
Assisted average speed - 12 mph (using minimum effort)

After reading on A to B's website, I personally think the Powabyke should be on "The Maestro's" short list if he wants a cheap e-bike bought locally, in case it goes wrong, just for commuting to work.
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[The Maestro]

Well I went to look at a few today and tried a 24 Speed Communter Powabyke at Redline Garage in Garstang and a Giant Twist at Apple bikes in Lytham St. Annes. I didn't think they were much good for me to be perfectly honest, I seemed to actually find that cycling in the 0-15 mph range was worse than on a normal bike and it was noticably harder to pedal. The motors seemed to cut out at a very low speed. I thought that 15mph was a lot faster!

I think its going to have to be a normal bike for me or something that is legally dubious.

 

[Django]

Well I went to look at a few today and tried a 24 Speed Communter Powabyke at Redline Garage in Garstang and a Giant Twist at Apple bikes in Lytham St. Annes. I didn't think they were much good for me to be perfectly honest, I seemed to actually find that cycling in the 0-15 mph range was worse than on a normal bike and it was noticably harder to pedal. The motors seemed to cut out at a very low speed. I thought that 15mph was a lot faster!

I think its going to have to be a normal bike for me or something that is legally dubious.

Agreed. 15mph is likewise too slow for me, so legally dubious it may have to be. If you can try a Torq 1 do so and then on your days with cold, hangover etc, you can just twist and go at a speed at least approaching your unassisted bike, which you may prefer to use when feeling up to it.

I am reasonably fit and reasonably young and find that the Torq just takes away the irritation of having to pedal when I can't be bothered. For a commute of your distance and someone of your fitness, it strikes me as ideal.

 

[Kal]

Although street legal electric bikes are not as fast as most people would like them to be they are a great help especially in hilly areas and especially to older or unfit people. Regular cycling was always hard work to me.. even when I went touring in my youth and would ride up to 100 miles in a day and I still only averaged around 12 mph. The point is.. electric bikes make riding EASY and more of a pleasure
.

 

[The Maestro]

Although street legal electric bikes are not as fast as most people would like them to be they are a great help especially in hilly areas and especially to older or unfit people. Regular cycling was always hard work to me.. even when I went touring in my youth and would ride up to 100 miles in a day and I still only averaged around 12 mph. The point is.. electric bikes make riding EASY and more of a pleasure
.

Yes I can see that even with the restrictions they are a very valuable form of transport for a large minority of people. My initial impressions of legal bikes as a young reasonably fit rider haven't been good its true but I've only done a few hundred meters on the bikes outside the cycle shops. Obviously I wasn't tired at the time and could easily have whipped up to 30 on a normal bike. I might have really felt the benefit after a few miles of cycling, its just so hard to tell.

I don't know the reasons for the 15 mph speed limit, maybe there are good ones. To me it would make more sense to allow motor assistance up to normal cycling speeds for young fit riders, say 25-30mph. That way the bikes really would go mass market and make a difference in tackling congestion and pollution etc. There would obviously be more accidents but the benefits massively outweigh the inevitable problems.

 

[frank9755]

I didn't think you'd be impressed!

In my opinion, electric bikes are a great product and open up cycling to many people who would not otherwise do it, or would not do it anything like as much. But they aren't really designed for a young, fit, competent cyclist in a flat area who wants to go fast.

If you want to take it easy and go at a significantly lower speed than you normally ride, then you will find plenty of bikes that suit you - but if you want to go your normal speeds, you will either need to spend a significant amount of time fine-tuning a (non-legal) kit, or stick to pedal power!

 

[Caractacus Potts]

... I think its going to have to be a normal bike for me or something that is legally dubious.

Maestro,

Whilst we have no reports of the latest Wisper, I can thoroughly recommend its predecessor, the 905E. I've had one for about 3 months, done 1300 miles (17miles each way to work on most days). I have 'fortunately' suffered a malfunction whereby one of the wires to the speed restriction circuitry has 'fallen off' - I can achieve 20 + mph on the flat (headwind permitting) with a bit of pedalling and I'm not exactly in the fittest cyclist on the forum. I can complete the 17 mile journey in 1 hour with maximum throttle assistance for about 1/3 of the journey (pedelec assistance for the rest).
As the initial specs for the 905SE included a 'derestriction mode', the battery is supposed to have about 40% more capacity and the bike itself is supposed to be mechanically superior to its predecessor, assuming the motor/controller combination will not constitute a retrograde step, the capabilities of the 905SE should exceed those of the 905E. This should go a long way to meeting your requirements for a 10 mile each way trip - the only problem would appear to be the price but then every 'silver lining' has a cloud .
Also, when you come off the throttle, pedalling at 15 - 20 MPH is definately harder than on a conventional bike (well those at the top end anyway) and you can feel a resistance but, IMHO this is made up for by the assistance at the lower end of the scale.
I should add that (apart from advice on how to effect such a 'convenient' malfunction) the guys at Wisper have been quite helpful to myself and others on the forum so that should go some way to adressing your concerns about after sales support. Admittedly they are some 2-300 miles away but I've had no problems that would require anything to be returned to them - the only thing being basic cycle maintenance (brake pads) which they say they have addressed on the 905SE.

Regards,