Help! Building up from Swytch kit

[cheesemonkey]

Thanks @Nealh, yes of course, you mentioned that earlier; I forgot about you advice around 36 vs 48V set up (for 36V, upto 20A current / for 48V, upto 18A; more voltage, less ampere = less risk of hub burning up). I'll consider getting "48V-compatible" components for having an option to go up to 48V in the future; I feel 36V is fine for my current intended purposes.

I now sit down quietly and decide exactly what to do. Thanks to everyone's contribution and researching online, I feel confident that I can keep Swytch's 100xs hub and upgrade the rest of the kit (controller, display, PAS + battery). If I'm feeling experimental and brave, I could try to salvage and connect the battery from Swytch (36V 7Ah, ?A max), but much simpler to just sell the Swytch kit as a whole (minus the hub motor).

Many thanks everyone and happy cycling

 

[cheesemonkey]

PRICING!

So I'm getting down to the pricing if I were to go the TBK DIY route, which is quite complicated with exchange rate (USD to GBP) + figuring out import duty tax.

If I were to go with:

• T09S 22A controller kit (with addition of LCD5, 130D thumb throttle, 8PAS) =$44.30
• 9Pins Motor Cable to SM blocks = $4.75
• Cheapest (and longest) shipping = $31.57

That's approx. £63.50 ($80.62) including shipping.
Plus £12.68 import duty (according to SimplyDuty calculator)? - does this sound about right?
Total: £76.18

I can't find like-for-like competitive price from UK/European retailer on eBay or Amazon. Any other online retailer from Europe/UK I can check for competitive price?

I'm not keen on getting battery from China directly as I expect shipping and duty will be high and negate the cheap unit price. I'd rather first enquire UK based retailer for the battery.

 

[saneagle]

PRICING!

So I'm getting down to the pricing if I were to go the TBK DIY route, which is quite complicated with exchange rate (USD to GBP) + figuring out import duty tax.

If I were to go with:

• T09S 22A controller kit (with addition of LCD5, 130D thumb throttle, 8PAS) =$44.30
• 9Pins Motor Cable to SM blocks = $4.75
• Cheapest (and longest) shipping = $31.57

That's approx. £63.50 ($80.62) including shipping.
Plus £12.68 import duty (according to SimplyDuty calculator)? - does this sound about right?
Total: £76.18

I can't find like-for-like competitive price from UK/European retailer on eBay or Amazon. Any other online retailer from Europe/UK I can check for competitive price?

I'm not keen on getting battery from China directly as I expect shipping and duty will be high and negate the cheap unit price. I'd rather first enquire UK based retailer for the battery.

I never had to pay any sort of duty on a controller from China. It's normally just the big stuff like batteries and motor wheels where you have to pay.

There's no sense in buying a battery from China these days. Local resellers can bring them in in bulk and sell them cheaper than the Chiness ones because of the much lower shipping costs.

 

[cheesemonkey]

Connectors!

I'm leaning towards getting a kit with SM block (for example, as above = T09S 22A with LCD5, throttle and 8PAS + 9Pins Motor Cable to SM blocks). Buying as a kit (from TBK or elsewhere) ensures that the plugs for controller, display, throttle and 8PAS will be fine.

I'll need extra cable between the controller and the Hub to make sure the controller's SM blocks connects with the hub's 9 pin plug.

The only remaining connector to check is the battery. The controllers from TBK seems have battery wires (red + black) in bullet connectors with transparent green sleeves. I assume the bullet connectors will need to be cut and solder a compatible connectors/terminals that match with whatever the battery pack's cables come in with (e.g. Anderson, XT, etc).

Am I right with these assumptions and is there anything else to consider with connecting all the components?

 

[cheesemonkey]

I never had to pay any sort of duty on a controller from China. It's normally just the big stuff like batteries and motor wheels where you have to pay.

There's no sense in buying a battery from China these days. Local resellers can bring them in in bulk and sell them cheaper than the Chiness ones because of the much lower shipping costs.

Thank you @saneagle, reassuring to hear about no duty (though I'll make some room for any surprise taxation, just in case). Also thanks for reinforcing the reason for going UK retailer for the battery.

 

[saneagle]

Connectors!

I'm leaning towards getting a kit with SM block (for example, as above = T09S 22A with LCD5, throttle and 8PAS + 9Pins Motor Cable to SM blocks). Buying as a kit (from TBK or elsewhere) ensures that the plugs for controller, display, throttle and 8PAS will be fine.

I'll need extra cable between the controller and the Hub to make sure the controller's SM blocks connects with the hub's 9 pin plug.

The only remaining connector to check is the battery. The controllers from TBK seems have battery wires (red + black) in bullet connectors with transparent green sleeves. I assume the bullet connectors will need to be cut and solder a compatible connectors/terminals that match with whatever the battery pack's cables come in with (e.g. Anderson, XT, etc).

Am I right with these assumptions and is there anything else to consider with connecting all the components?

If your motor doesn't have a working speed sensor in it, you should get an external wheel magnet one.

Always solder the battery wires. Connectors are a weak point. The battery is removable from its holder, so you don't need a connector for the controller.

Use Greenlance for the battery.

 

[cheesemonkey]

PAS type!

I thought I'd check the PAS type, and I'm glad I just checked!

This is the bike with currently Swytch kit on it. some old LADIES?! Claud Butler Urban with triple chainring and 7 speed freewheel (filthy, sorry):



the current PAS is typical 12 pole (assuming KT-D12L, has KING MOTOR written on it). Looking closer at the square taper spindle, the bottom bracket (BB) is recessed:



I'm assuming that the sensor that comes with 8PAS (the metallic ring that sits between BB and the frame) won't fit.

Solution I see with this is:

a) use 8 pole magnet ring with the current sensor - will this work? The current sensor is Julet on the other end... then I'll need to get controller with Julet plugs.
b) remove magnets from the current 12 pole ring to make 6 pole ring?

Is there another solution to this?

 

[cheesemonkey]

If your motor doesn't have a working speed sensor in it, you should get an external wheel magnet one.

Always solder the battery wires. Connectors are a weak point. The battery is removable from its holder, so you don't need a connector for the controller.

Use Greenlance for the battery.

Thanks again @saneagle. I'm assuming the current hub (Swytch's AKM 100xs) has speed sensor in it as it has the 9pin plug.

Noted on soldering the cables between the controller - battery; makes sense if I eventually go with a battery pack with slider (e.g. downtube battery).

Will add Greenlance to the list of battery retailers.

 

[saneagle]

PAS type!

I thought I'd check the PAS type, and I'm glad I just checked!

This is the bike with currently Swytch kit on it. some old LADIES?! Claud Butler Urban with triple chainring and 7 speed freewheel (filthy, sorry):

View attachment 56948

the current PAS is typical 12 pole (assuming KT-D12L, has KING MOTOR written on it). Looking closer at the square taper spindle, the bottom bracket (BB) is recessed:

View attachment 56949

I'm assuming that the sensor that comes with 8PAS (the metallic ring that sits between BB and the frame) won't fit.

Solution I see with this is:

a) use 8 pole magnet ring with the current sensor - will this work? The current sensor is Julet on the other end... then I'll need to get controller with Julet plugs.
b) remove magnets from the current 12 pole ring to make 6 pole ring?

Is there another solution to this?

The pedal sensors are generally designed to fit behind the chainwheel, so look at the gap on that side. The BB on that side has a flange to retain the sensor.

If you want to fit the sensor On the side you've shown, you can unscrew the BB a few threads then install a BB lock ring. That can cause side to side play in the BB, but you can add some packing, like an O-ring or rubber/plastic washer on the inside to compensate.

Your Swytch pedal sensor will probably work directly with your new controller, but make sure the three wires match the sequence in the controller's connector.

 

[thelarkbox]

PAS type!

I thought I'd check the PAS type, and I'm glad I just checked!

This is the bike with currently Swytch kit on it. some old LADIES?! Claud Butler Urban with triple chainring and 7 speed freewheel (filthy, sorry):

View attachment 56948

the current PAS is typical 12 pole (assuming KT-D12L, has KING MOTOR written on it). Looking closer at the square taper spindle, the bottom bracket (BB) is recessed:

View attachment 56949

I'm assuming that the sensor that comes with 8PAS (the metallic ring that sits between BB and the frame) won't fit.

Solution I see with this is:

a) use 8 pole magnet ring with the current sensor - will this work? The current sensor is Julet on the other end... then I'll need to get controller with Julet plugs.
b) remove magnets from the current 12 pole ring to make 6 pole ring?

Is there another solution to this?

the Pas sensors with the hall sensor anchored to a metal ring is intended to sit on the chain ring side of the crank and is expected to be held in place with the bottom bracket retaining thing..

if you want a left side sensor lift the one pictured or buy a similar left side sensor.

dont get too bogged down with the chenglish wording describing the C1 parameter, just try each option in turn and use what works no need to hack any sensors,

 

[Nealh]

No duty is due as total cost is under £135.

 

[Nealh]

I would forget all about the all in one type PAS and use a two piece behid the chainwheel.

I fitted a used KT BZ4 sensor type, which is a hollow tech fitting to a step thru today . I removed the KM sensor as it wouldn't play with the KT s06s I fitted ( having removed the crapwave controller) , the 12 pole KM disc worked though.
This is a bike that has been sititng in the garage awaiting repair/conversion since xmas, today was the first proper nice day of the year.

 

[cheesemonkey]

Slightly off tangent update:

The current Swytch powerpack has faulty phase wire cable connection (Amass MR30, rated 15A) between the controller and the powerpack/handlebar bracket interface. I suspect the connector melted due to poor continuity somewhere between the controller and the hub motor, causing the connector to melt. The motor judders big time and eventually kicks in with high pitch whines that never goes when motor is engaged. Walk test is pure judder. I've done 18miles at this state to get home (regret).

I did a very basic temporary repair to the wires with insulated crimp butt (whilst waiting for replacement MR30 connectors). I tested the motor but no noticeable difference to the judder on walk test / spinning PAS on the spot (unloaded, lifting up the front wheel and spinning the crank).

I recognise crimp butt is not the best repair. This got me also wondering. I won't be surprised if I damaged the controller (that's fine, it'll be replaced anyways), but could there be a possibility of the damage extending to the motor? Superficially, the hub casing and axle are showing signs of superficial rust and some pitting (3.5 years old, approx. 4,000miles, mix of use in sunny / rainy conditions):



Another consideration (perhaps a baseless excuse to justify my thinking), is that this is supposedly 100sx but "made to order" for Swytch; my experiences of dealing with issues based on poor assembly / quality of some of the components (charger, 3x battery packs, PAS sensor, handlebar bracket), I also question the quality of this hub.

So I'm starting to I wonder if it is just safer and hassle free to completely remove the Swytch set up and get a whole conversion kit (the wheel, battery, controller, display, PAS). I could still pursue the DIY route (replace with KT set up) but the potential risk is having to replace the hub motor at some point due to unresolved juddering or wear/tear over time.

Paranoid or justified?

 

[Woosh]

Justified

 

[Nealh]

That motor looks like it has been sitting in a duck pond for ages, can't say I have seen a motor with such bad rusty axles before.

 

[saneagle]

Slightly off tangent update:

The current Swytch powerpack has faulty phase wire cable connection (Amass MR30, rated 15A) between the controller and the powerpack/handlebar bracket interface. I suspect the connector melted due to poor continuity somewhere between the controller and the hub motor, causing the connector to melt. The motor judders big time and eventually kicks in with high pitch whines that never goes when motor is engaged. Walk test is pure judder. I've done 18miles at this state to get home (regret).

I did a very basic temporary repair to the wires with insulated crimp butt (whilst waiting for replacement MR30 connectors). I tested the motor but no noticeable difference to the judder on walk test / spinning PAS on the spot (unloaded, lifting up the front wheel and spinning the crank).

I recognise crimp butt is not the best repair. This got me also wondering. I won't be surprised if I damaged the controller (that's fine, it'll be replaced anyways), but could there be a possibility of the damage extending to the motor? Superficially, the hub casing and axle are showing signs of superficial rust and some pitting (3.5 years old, approx. 4,000miles, mix of use in sunny / rainy conditions):

Another consideration (perhaps a baseless excuse to justify my thinking), is that this is supposedly 100sx but "made to order" for Swytch; my experiences of dealing with issues based on poor assembly / quality of some of the components (charger, 3x battery packs, PAS sensor, handlebar bracket), I also question the quality of this hub.

So I'm starting to I wonder if it is just safer and hassle free to completely remove the Swytch set up and get a whole conversion kit (the wheel, battery, controller, display, PAS). I could still pursue the DIY route (replace with KT set up) but the potential risk is having to replace the hub motor at some point due to unresolved juddering or wear/tear over time.

Paranoid or justified?

Is the motor installed upside-down with the cable exiting upwards? That would cause the problems you experienced.

 

[cheesemonkey]

Is the motor installed upside-down with the cable exiting upwards? That would cause the problems you experienced.

Thanks @saneagle for your diligent eyes. Swytch instructs the hub cable to run opposite side of the chain (i.e. left side of the bike). The cable side also has the 6 bolts for disc brake and the cable runs down to create drip loop as instructed.

I searched online and it looks like other front hub motors have cable on the right side.

 

[cheesemonkey]

Many thanks everyone; it sounds like my option is a complete new kit. It's been so useful to learn so much about components in the last week or so.

 

[Nealh]

The frontwheel stepthru I have just repaired had the cable upside down, don't know if it was installed incorrectly by the seller or the owner who had it before .
Whoever installs them upside down doesn't apply logic or possess commonsense.

 

[thelarkbox]

my first fit was upside down, spotted in the pic i 'proudly' posted here thankfully. Not a big deal in the instructions iirc though i may not have looked at them