Brompton Nano or Kudos Secret?

[Cricket]

Hello, you seem like a friendly bunch who know a lot about electric bikes. Hopefully you can help me pick one.

I'm looking for a lightweight folding (assisted) bike due to illness. It would be used for short trips on quiet roads but more often than not on trails and paths (decent gravel etc) when taking the dogs out. At times I wouldn't be up to pedalling much at all so would be relying on the bike to do the work.

I was sort of set on the Brompton Nano - I like its personality and style tbh. Plus it would fold very nicely in an ordinary hatchback car and hopefully be light enough for me to lift unaided. But it seems suited for tarmac rather than off road and I have heard the steering on a bike with such small wheels takes a bit of getting used to (I'm a bit of a wobbler)!

I've also just been looking at the Kudos Secret and am now uncertain. The 20" wheels seem a tad more suited to paths and lanes off road and it looks a bit more 'solid'. And if I need to lock it up somewhere then the battery bag doesn't have to come with me. But I am not sure if it will be too heavy to lift and if it would fold up small enough to store away in a car?

Can anyone help. Not having seen either bike in the metal it's hard to know. I know I'll need to try them out myself but does anyone have any experience with either or both of these bikes? Any info much appreciated especially on the Kudos - range, is it noisy, heavy, performance on hills?

Cheers in advance, Cricket

 

[RobF]

You have worked out the differences between the bikes quite well.

I have a Brompton Nano and the steering is a bit twitchy, although the weight of the battery in the front damps it a little.

Bromptons are designed for asphalt, the handbook says to be careful on cinder tracks.

They are doable, but it does feel a little like riding on ball bearings.

On t'other hand, a Brommie is a quality, bombproof bike which will literally last a lifetime.

The Nano front hub motor is quiet and pulls cleanly from very low speeds, unlike some which tend to 'stall'.

The fold of the Brompton is ten times better than any other, and is not interfered with by the Nano conversion because you simply lift the bag off the front luggage block.

I've had a brief go on a Kudos Secret and it's OK, but could never be described as a quality bicycle.

The fold is not as a good as a Brommie, but would be good enough to lift into the back of most hatchbacks.

 

[Deleted member 4366]

16" wheels are not really suitable for cinder and gravel tracks. Even 20" wheels can be a bit of a pain. Have a look on Ebay: There's 26" folding bikes on there with full suspension:
folding electric bike | eBay

There's also the Byocycle with 24" wheels.
ELECTRIC BIKES FOR EVERYBODY AND EVERYDAY

 

[Cricket]

You have worked out the differences between the bikes quite well.

I have a Brompton Nano and the steering is a bit twitchy, although the weight of the battery in the front damps it a little.

Bromptons are designed for asphalt, the handbook says to be careful on cinder tracks.

They are doable, but it does feel a little like riding on ball bearings.

On t'other hand, a Brommie is a quality, bombproof bike which will literally last a lifetime.

The Nano front hub motor is quiet and pulls cleanly from very low speeds, unlike some which tend to 'stall'.

The fold of the Brompton is ten times better than any other, and is not interfered with by the Nano conversion because you simply lift the bag off the front luggage block.

I've had a brief go on a Kudos Secret and it's OK, but could never be described as a quality bicycle.

The fold is not as a good as a Brommie, but would be good enough to lift into the back of most hatchbacks.

Thank you for your reply RobF. That was very helpful.

Do you really only use the Brompton for road cycling then? I'm not sure the ball bearing ride is for me but I only want the one bicycle so it has to be suitable for different surfaces. I am so torn as I just love that little bike. Where we walk tends to be well packed gravel or hard sandy soil...but still.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by the Kudos not being a quality bicycle? Do you mean the materials/build or the ride? Also, I understand the Nano is very quiet and I wondered how the Kudos compared. I am not keen to ride on something that sounds like a jet plane

 

[Cricket]

16" wheels are not really suitable for cinder and gravel tracks. Even 20" wheels can be a bit of a pain. Have a look on Ebay: There's 26" folding bikes on there with full suspension:
folding electric bike | eBay

There's also the Byocycle with 24" wheels.
ELECTRIC BIKES FOR EVERYBODY AND EVERYDAY

Thanks d8veh,

I think I might have to accept the very small wheels aren't suitable for my purposes.

The bikes in your links look great, it's just the weight that is the problem. But I can see from looking on the web and reading past posts that finding a light/folding/quiet/stable ebike that will perform well on all surfaces is going to be difficult (impossible)!

 

[ghouluk]

I'd agree with the above, the brompton is the ultimate commuter bike, but its not well suited to off road or twisty path use. Its worth noting that if you intend using it on the tube in london, you need the brompton or dahon or one of the other fourfold bikes, for most other trains you can have any folder at peak hours.

we have a couple of the larger dahon folders that will easily fit into a car (both will even fit into the smart fortwo my misses has) and are light enough to lift (a jack and a matrix) both of these are ok on tracks and towpaths (though as yet neither are motorized)

from what you've said about usage, you'll pay a premium for the brompton for something you won't really use and you'll miss out on the ride you need.

I'd have a try of some of the bigger ebike folders including the secret, including folding them and lifting them - i'll think for your needs they'll be better than the brompton.

 

[Jonah]

If you want a bike to love, then it has to be a Brompton. They are fine on reasonable trails but don't like really rough stuff. However, unless you need the really small fold and have the money (quality costs!) the Kudos Secret is a practical (and much cheaper) solution. There are a number of similar folding bikes (mostly with 20" wheels) in the £500 - £1000 bracket. Any of these bikes will fit in most hatchbacks. I have tried the Kudos Secret and it feels better than many other 'cheap' folders I have tried but you will never love it. It is lighter than most.

I considered the Secret but went for a Brompton in the end because I wanted to use it for long distance touring. Bromptons ride like real bikes with proper useable gearing. You can ride them for the whole day. Most other folding bikes, feel like a folding bike and you wouldn't want ride more than an hour or so on them. If you only plan short rides then this probably won't bother you too much. When you get a chance to try them out you will see what I mean.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Obviously I am biased,really you have to try both bikes and determine what suits you. The only point I would disagree with is the length of ride....I have for my own transport 2 Secret bikes,I ride them for hours round the mountains of the Greek Isles,they have to cope with roughish tracks as well as tarmac.
My friend has a pair of Bromptons which he rides around London a lot,but only on tarmac and never more than 5 miles,but they are beautifully engineered in the fold.
Personally I would not ride any bike smaller than 20" wheels because of potholes,if you don't have your wits about you anything less than 20" down a pothole can feel like hitting a wall.
We used to have 3 folders in our range,namely Cheetah,Versatile and Secret but for 2014 we have settled on the Secret as our future bike,the in-frame battery just makes the bike nicely balanced,it also only weighs 18kgs which is 5kgs less than most of the other 20"folders,it has a throttle and integral led lights ,the tyres are a compromise between tarmac and track usage.
We are on our third batch of Secrets,with over 280 sold,there must be others on this forum who can give you an unbiased opinion.
KudosDave

 

[Streethawk]

I've yet to see any 20" wheel folder that will fit in a typical hatchback with the parcel shelf in place. They all should if you're happy to remove it, but then the bike is on show of course and you may be worried about leaving the car parked with the bike in the back on show. The Brompton will though, and it's a very nice piece of kit, possibly the bike i most regret selling of the 15-ish i've had in the last three years.

I rode my Brompton everywhere, on every surface and never found it to be a problem, however it may be that i have more off-road skills than most, having raced mountain bikes in my youth.

 

[Cricket]

OK, all of your replies have been exactly what I am after. Thank you so much and if there is anyone else out there with any advice to offer I'd be glad to hear it.

I'm busy trying to work out exactly where I'd use the bike. I think deep down I know the Brompton isn't the best choice for me apart from its small fold and top quality. I'm sure I could use it on the sort of paths I am thinking of but it would be a poor use of it and not very comfortable.

I'll look into the Secret a bit more. We only have a small Toyota IQ but I think it would fit. Not being very technical I only half understand the issue with the gears that people mention on the cheaper electric bikes. There is a dealer who sells the Secret and has modified it to help with this problem. Does anyone know if this will be worth paying for? I'll quote what they said they do on their website...

On this bike we have fitted a larger chainset of 52T with standard adult 170mm cranks rather than the original short 155mm version. The purpose of this is to increase the gearing and give the rider a fighting chance of keeping up with the motor when travelling at 15mph

We feel that with the original chainset, unless your legs are like a crank on a locomotive that can increase speed to a blurr, you’re not likely to assist above 10mph, and you’ll certainly generate some steam!

What do you think?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

There can be a slight problem with rear motors in small-wheeled bikes. The free-wheel gears only go as high 14 teeth. You need 11 teeth on the back and at least 48 on the front to pedal like a normal bike. With 14T on the back, you need at least 52T on the front otherwise your legs spin-out at about 12 mph. When you go downhill, your speed will be above that, so all you can do is sit and wait til you can slow down and pedal again.

 

[Cricket]

Is that not a problem on the Brompton Nano then?

 

[banbury frank]

Hi Similar bike to the Kudos BUT £475 Including delivery


Folding Electric Bike -36V Lithium Battery | eBay

imgur: the simple image sharer

Frank

 

[Kudoscycles]

OK, all of your replies have been exactly what I am after. Thank you so much and if there is anyone else out there with any advice to offer I'd be glad to hear it.

I'm busy trying to work out exactly where I'd use the bike. I think deep down I know the Brompton isn't the best choice for me apart from its small fold and top quality. I'm sure I could use it on the sort of paths I am thinking of but it would be a poor use of it and not very comfortable.

I'll look into the Secret a bit more. We only have a small Toyota IQ but I think it would fit. Not being very technical I only half understand the issue with the gears that people mention on the cheaper electric bikes. There is a dealer who sells the Secret and has modified it to help with this problem. Does anyone know if this will be worth paying for? I'll quote what they said they do on their website...

On this bike we have fitted a larger chainset of 52T with standard adult 170mm cranks rather than the original short 155mm version. The purpose of this is to increase the gearing and give the rider a fighting chance of keeping up with the motor when travelling at 15mph

We feel that with the original chainset, unless your legs are like a crank on a locomotive that can increase speed to a blurr, you’re not likely to assist above 10mph, and you’ll certainly generate some steam!

What do you think?

Cricket....the 52 tooth chainring is ideal if you want to ride fast with less cadence,there is truth in that most of these small folders are undergeared and its possible with little effort to start off in top gear,but it(44 tooth) does give a nice range for steep hill climbing in the lower gears.
Our 2014 spec bike will have an optional choice of either 44T or 52T chainring.
To fit a 52T chainring to a 2013 bike is only about £20.00.
For me I am happy with the 44T but I don't ride fast,prefering to watch the world go by!!
KudosDave

 

[Jonah]

Is that not a problem on the Brompton Nano then?

The Brompton Nano (and other conversions) has a front wheel motor. There are several gearing options on the Brompton but I find the 3-speed hub on mine lets me pedal up to 20 mph quite comfortably. As others say, most cheaper folders with 6-speed gears max out well below 15 mph. The Secret modification to a larger chainring would help as would the longer cranks. This would effectively make all the gears higher. Kudos Dave should be able to offer an opinion on this.

 

[DavePat]

You did not mention your weight which could be important.

I wanted to throw another bike into the mix, the Woosh Zephyr CD. I leave it to the guys with more experience of folders than me, I don't have any, to give the pluses and minuses.

The battery, being in the frame, is not removable to reduce the handling weight which may be a concern.

 

[Cricket]

The technical advice on the gears and chainring is great guys.

DaveKudos - Out of interest, when will the 2014 Kudos Secret be available? I also ride slowly most of the time and am happy pottering along so the 44T might be ok but always good to have the choice. Tbh, I will often need to use it as more of a scooter although in the future if my health improves I may be up to pedalling more.

DavePat - I'm 5'4" and just under 10 stone (137 lbs to be precise!). I hadn't thought about that but does it make much of a difference?

 

[Deleted member 4366]

I've just done some rough sums:
A cheap mountain bike with 14/44 gearing will do 14.4 mph with a comfortable cadence of 60.
A Kudos Secret with the same gearing, but 20" wheel, will do 11 mph, and will climb well with its low gearing.
Secret with a 52T chain-ring will do 13 mph.
Any bike with a front motor or crank-drive, you can have 11T on the back, which will increase those speeds by 30%. You can also get DNP free-wheels with 11T top gear that would fit the Kudos, but the six-speed versions are becoming hard to find.

 

[jhruk]

Another point to bear in mind if you intend to use the bike a lot on loose surfaces is traction - especially on small wheel bikes.

I have a 20” Dahon folder with a front wheel motor and while it doesn’t like serious ‘off-road’ terrain is mostly fine with the varying surfaces found on most Sustrans type routes. The only problem is ascending steep loose surfaced gradients where the weight transfer can cause the front motor to loose grip, which might be important if you can’t pedal much. In this respect a rear motor would be much better but, as has been pointed out, it does makes the gearing more complicated.

Another idea for making small wheel bikes more comfortable on bad surfaces is to fit fatter ‘balloon’ type tyres, such as the Schwalbe Big Apple - they made a considerable difference on the Dahon. Unfortunately not all bikes have enough clearance to accept these so it’s something that might be worth checking before purchase. The 20” (406) wheels have a larger range of available tyres than the far less common 16”(349) Brompton.

 

[Cricket]

Jhruk - did you buy your Dahon 20" already converted or DIY? I really like the look of some Dahons but could never consider fitting a motor myself. However, my partner is itching to try. If you did do it yourself could you tell me which 20" Dahons it's possible to do this with and where you buy the conversion kits? Thanks