Brexit, for once some facts.

guerney

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I will almost never say a fungus is safe to eat. Partly because identification isn't easy and especially so online. (And I know enough to know I am no expert.) But also as in this passage:

From tree stumps or buried wood of broadleaf trees, Coprinus micaceus, formerly known as the Mica Inkcap but now called the Glistening Inkcap, arises in small to medium-sized clumps from spring until early winter. This edible mushroom is potentially poisonous if collected from roadsides or polluted land, where the mycellium can bioaccumulate heavy metals such as cadmium and lead; this results in the mushrooms containing high concentrations of these toxins.
Thank you for that spot of fungi ID - I may err on the side of caution, because they are growing in very heavy (undiggable) clay, with a very thin topsoil layer, and I don't know it's history. The dead tree stumps in my garden do seem to spring some interesting surprises.
 
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flecc

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One that I'm thinking of is to regulate towards the norm being a capable 50 mile EV with a small IC engine for occasional use, a bit more than the 40hp it takes to keep a car moving at 70mph. There'd be some variation of course but gross exceptions for private use would be hard to obtain.
Similar has been done and proved unpopular, plus it needs a far bigger ic engine than you imagine to be reasonably drivable. Both GM's Chevrolet volt and BYD's Astra size car used 2 litre backup engines, both with claimed 80 mile EV capability but in reality nearer your 50 miles. I think both discontinued now, as is BMW's I3 with a very poor smaller auxiliary i.c. engine.

These days it takes a 250 mile battery to sell an EV in preference to an IC car, when either is likely to average 20 miles a day. That sets a pattern until at least 2035 and doesn't sound like a convincing low carbon outcome overall.
As ever EV problems only exist in the minds of i.c. drivers, where's the problem? As yet another doing mostly low mileage in my 160 mile range Leaf, I only charge very occasionally, once every two or three weeks, just like an i.c. driver only tops up the tank occasionally. Yes I am carrying the battery around, but how is that different from a hybrid carrying around all the IC engine and transmission weight in addition to all the electric drive and fairly large battery anyway? It's not.

Would hybrids become acceptable or is this just too controversial?
It's not the controversy, it's just that there is no gain with hybrid, just more weight, more cost and more service charges, so they are both undesirable and unnecessary. The public have woken up to this which is why hybrid sales are in sharp decline while BEV sales have risen far beyond theirs.

The point is that we need to get rid of i.c. altogether. Even trucks now are switching to battery drive only where possible, with the likes of Volvo and Renault making them from light trucks to 40 tonne tractor units. Even many of Biffa's refuse trucks in Manchester are now pure battery powered for all functions. Not much point if there's lots of hybrid cars still running around polluting.
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Zlatan

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Similar has been done and proved unpopular, plus it needs a far bigger ic engine than you imagine to be reasonably drivable. Both GM's Chevrolet volt and BYD's Astra size car used 2 litre backup engines, both with claimed 80 mile EV capability but in reality nearer your 50 miles. I think both discontinued now, as is BMW's I3 with a very poor smaller auxiliary i.c. engine.



As ever EV problems only exist in the minds of i.c. drivers, where's the problem? As yet another doing mostly low mileage in my 160 mile range Leaf, I only charge very occasionally, once every two or three weeks, just like an i.c. driver only tops up the tank occasionally. Yes I am carrying the battery around, but how is that different from a hybrid carrying around all the IC engine and transmission weight in addition to all the electric drive and fairly large battery anyway? It's not.



It's not the controversy, it's just that there is no gain with hybrid, just more weight, more cost and more service charges, so they are both undesirable and unnecessary. The public have woken up to this which is why hybrid sales are in sharp decline while BEV sales have risen far beyond theirs.

The point is that we need to get rid of i.c. altogether. Even trucks now are switching to battery drive only where possible, with the likes of Volvo and Renault making them from light trucks to 40 tonne tractor units. Even many of Biffa's refuse trucks in Manchester are now pure battery powered for all functions. Not much point if there's lots of hybrid cars still running around polluting.
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The maths for Hybrid has never made sense, except for top exotica,in which they can claim ridiculous green credentials (80 mpg etc) yet still accelerate at ridiculous rates (utilising both simultaneously)
F1 has been quite happy to support and promote the silly regime,but that's hardly a recommendation, they can't even decide rightful champion after bouts of cheating.
How on earth can any car claim green credentials lugging about batterties, e motors, control units, electric heaters and every system replicated for the IC engine.
The simple fact is ICEs economy no longer correlates with its displacement, its simply a function of weight carried and how much performance you want. A small Ice in a heavy car will use just as much fuel as a big one. It's impossible for hybrid to be efficient on any objective measure. Beleive marketing hype at your peril...
And its always amazed me they are even allowed on UK roads. Twin engined cars certainly aren't. Tracks and off road yes but all those twin engined minis , Caterham etc from Z cars are illegal on public road.
 
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Danidl

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Off current topic but linked to previous discussions. The Guardian reports today that it is now UK Government policy to ban or at least spancil Solar PV on agricultural land, .. .. On the grounds that it prevents growing crops . Well this is simply bonkers. Experience in Hollywood and Denmark and being replicated elsewhere is that not only does low density say 15% to 20% coverage by PV not hinder growth, it enhances it!.
. The spacing of the arrays of PV allows machinery to harvest crops growing below. All rainwater hitting the panels ,rolls off into the soil and the intermittent shade helps moisture retention,. The sun has been known to rise in the east and set in the west, so that suitable alignment and height and spacing of arrays will ensure light at some time in the day.
Even animal husbandry is possible with free range poultry , and even sheep and goats. However cattle are unsuitable only because the stanchions holding the panels need be taller and must be more robust
 
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oyster

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Off current topic but linked to previous discussions. The Guardian reports today that it is now UK Government policy to ban or at least spancil Solar PV on agricultural land, .. .. On the grounds that it prevents growing crops . Well this is simply bonkers. Experience in Hollywood and Denmark and being replicated elsewhere is that not only does low density say 15% to 20% coverage by PV not hinder growth, it enhances it!.
. The spacing of the arrays of PV allows machinery to harvest crops growing below. All rainwater hitting the panels ,rolls off into the soil and the intermittent shade helps moisture retention,. The sun has been known to rise in the east and set in the west, so that suitable alignment and height and spacing of arrays will ensure light at some time in the day.
Even animal husbandry is possible with free range poultry , and even sheep and goats. However cattle are unsuitable only because the stanchions holding the panels need be taller and must more robust
I'll repeat that installing panels over/round car parks would make much sense. Help keep cars cooler so reduce a/c requirement. Protect pedestrians from the worst of wind and rain.
 
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guerney

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Off current topic but linked to previous discussions. The Guardian reports today that it is now UK Government policy to ban or at least spancil Solar PV on agricultural land, .. .. On the grounds that it prevents growing crops . Well this is simply bonkers. Experience in Hollywood and Denmark and being replicated elsewhere is that not only does low density say 15% to 20% coverage by PV not hinder growth, it enhances it!.
. The spacing of the arrays of PV allows machinery to harvest crops growing below. All rainwater hitting the panels ,rolls off into the soil and the intermittent shade helps moisture retention,. The sun has been known to rise in the east and set in the west, so that suitable alignment and height and spacing of arrays will ensure light at some time in the day.
Even animal husbandry is possible with free range poultry , and even sheep and goats. However cattle are unsuitable only because the stanchions holding the panels need be taller and must be more robust
Don't toxic metals from solar panels contaminate soil, ending up in crops?
 

guerney

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Only if smashed up and buried I, d guess. But they wouldn't work then.

"Studies have shown the heavy metals in solar panels — namely lead and cadmium — can leach out of the cells and get into groundwater, as well as affect plants."


 

Danidl

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Don't toxic metals from solar panels contaminate soil, ending up in crops?
Have you seen a PV panel up close?. The top surface is a sheet of glass .. ,the sides are aluminium strip, and the back is another sheet of aluminium or sometimes more glass. . Were you to grind them up, there would be small quantities of boron , silver, aluminium , phosphorus. There could be trace amounts of antimony used to solder tabs. The metal passivation on the nuts and bolts in the fitting to stanchions would be more significant.
 
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Zlatan

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"Studies have shown the heavy metals in solar panels — namely lead and cadmium — can leach out of the cells and get into groundwater, as well as affect plants."

Have you read the article Guerney? The salient point is calling for safe disposal "after" the 30 year expected life..?? I don't think there is a problem the mentioned metals leaching out in usage, even tho the illustrations lead you that way.
Look at it other way, would panels actually work for even 5 years if the damned things leaked out metals after rain? I doubt it.
You could make same argument for every battery made?? Then where would we be? All suffering from metal poisoning.??
 
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guerney

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Have you read the article Guerney? The salient point is calling for safe disposal "after" the 30 year expected life..?? I don't think there is a problem the mentioned metals leaching out in usage, even tho the illustrations lead you that way.
Look at it other way, would panels actually work for even 5 years if the damned things leaked out metals after rain? I doubt it.
You could make same argument for every battery made?? Then where would we be? All suffering from metal poisoning.??
They can also leech in situ:

 

Zlatan

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Not quite.
I, d have a good read of that one too Guerney. The test piece was a 5x5 cm of module cut from a full piece with no edge protection.
Screenshot_20221010_210047.jpg

The conclusion was
If modules are well fitted with correct side sealing "there will be no leaching"
It also points out leaching will occur if modules are cracked and or broken or milled up and thrown on land fill. That figures.
So, have them carefully fitted, with edges fully protected /sealed and don't break them. Dispose of them correctly after end of usefull life. (ie don't grind and chuck on landfill) Remove damaged panels quickly.
If you start with a premise you can normally find some justification. They don't leach if sealed correctly.
Both your links suggest so.
 
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guerney

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Not quite.
I, d have a good read of that one too Guerney. The test piece was a 5x5 cm of module cut from a full piece with no edge protection.
View attachment 49125

The conclusion was
If modules are well fitted with correct side sealing "there will be no leaching"
It also points out leaching will occur if modules are cracked and or broken or milled up and thrown on land fill. That figures.
So, have them carefully fitted, with edges fully protected /sealed and don't break them. Dispose of them correctly after end of usefull life. (ie don't grind and chuck on landfill) Remove damaged panels quickly.
If you start with a premise you can normally find some justification. They don't leach if sealed correctly.
Both your links suggest so.
I started with a question, and I also question whether the materials used to seal panels are UV stabilised, and how long they're stable for, whether they leech anything toxic - even a small amount of poisonous leeching, over time accumulates to become a hard to remove problem. Rainwater is becoming ever more acidic. Until proven safe beyond their operational lifespan, solar panels should not be used on agricultural land.
 

oyster

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I also question whether the materials used to seal panels are UV stabilised
It is surely inconceivable they are not UV stabilised? You can see such stuff disintegrating in months and we have been successfully sealing windows, doors, cars, aircraft, for many years.
 
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Zlatan

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I started with a question, and I also question whether the materials used to seal panels are UV stabilised, and how long they're stable for, whether they leech anything toxic - even a small amount of poisonous leeching, over time accumulates to become a hard to remove problem. Rainwater is becoming ever more acidic. Until proven safe beyond their operational lifespan, solar panels should not be used on agricultural land.
But your two links say if fitted and maintained correctly they are fine. It's "leached" by the way. I have a 25 year old BMW, the door seals still keep wind and rain out. It's hardly rocket science to seal things correctly. Not much hope for Lithium batteries otherwise.
 

guerney

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It is surely inconceivable they are not UV stabilised? You can see such stuff disintegrating in months and we have been successfully sealing windows, doors, cars, aircraft, for many years.
The seals in my double glazed windows shrunk and disintegrated, and they were sold as "UV stabilised", or maybe it was heator cold that destroyed them, which are other factors.
 

oyster

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The seals in my double glazed windows shrunk and disintegrated, and they were sold as "UV stablised", or maybe it was heator cold that destroyed them, which are other factors.
The quality of the UV stabilisation is another matter. Albeit it ends up with the same problems.
 

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