Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

We are at war.. I thought against Covid but it seems the EU..???

Now I know you have completely lost it.

It's just you and JHC who are at war with the EU, none of the rest of us posting are, simply because, unlike both of you, we have kept our sanity on this subject.

I've come back in this morning only to find three more web pages of your joint obsessive attacks against the EU and continental countries on a subject that has nothing whatsoever to do with us. This is completely irrational behaviour by you both since we are now two months out of the EU and in any case the EU and it's medical experts are not opposing the use of any vaccine or delaying any use. It is only some continental countries temporarily delaying due to minding their own business well, just as we and particularly both of you should be doing.
.

 

[Danidl]

Vaccine delivery to the EU:

AZ has supplied fewer than 12 million shots to the EU. [9-March]
I can't see where the citation of 15 million doses in the cupboard come from.

QUOTE:
To be sure, AstraZeneca has certainly under-delivered to the EU. The company planned to provide between 80 million and 100 million doses by the end of March, but in January, it drastically reduced the total to 40 million, citing manufacturing issues. Since then, the company has struggled to meet even that goal, and has supplied fewer than 12 million shots to the EU.

source:
Coronavirus vaccine deliveries in Europe — by the numbers – POLITICO

Very useful graphics on that site.

 

[Zlatan]

1. Since the UK never sent any AZ to the EU , stopping shipments would be very easy. Any AZ used in Europe was EU produced
2. There is an enthusiasm for the AZ and Pfizer here in Ireland.
3. The schedule for last week was for the medically vulnerable 16 + s to get the AZ , and that was halted, but has probably started today..I expect my son to contact me. We will then again be out of our allocation of AZ.
4. I become eligible in a weeks time for the over 70s allocations .. probably Pfizer.
And as is your practice, you ignore the facts and attack the person.

Hang on Danidl. Let's keep facts simple.
I, m 63,I had vaccine 5 weeks ago. (AZ) I, m more than happy with that and the wait for 2nd.
All my family (except grand kids) have had vaccine. (6 of us, ages 37 to 67).
You haven't had yours. First or 2nd,tet you supported this delay, jeep applauding EU stance, even tho Ireland ignored EMA and you now blame UK for hogging vaccines .
Your country chose to put its faith in EU procurement,which between EU, France and Germany etc etc have messed up.
AZ must feel same as us, are they dealing with EU or a list of 27 countries. On the one hand you agree with EU but then ignore their advice. Between Marvin, Merkel, delays, stopping trials and suspending roll out confidence has been seriously damaged, yet you harp on about supply, when in fact on numerous occasions folk have rolled up in EU for vaccines and been sent home on basis of safety precautions.
You can't make incessant stoppages and that not have an effect. Ireland should have come in with UK on Vaccine roll out. It's more natural historic partner. It didn't and now its our faults.
If EU(or who ever you want me to call it now) are having supply problems, which I doubt, there is nobody to blame but themselves. The problem is too many chiefs, not enough Indians. As is always case in EU.
Macron wants to blame AZ, EMA, the media, UK, Supply, the electorate, EU anybody but himself. He started it all. "quasi effective"???
You can't knock the product, the supplier, the source and not expect problems.
You get too involved with the numbers. They can be made to say what either side wish.
France has enough AZ to be vaccinating. It isn't. We are.

 

[Zlatan]

Now I know you have completely lost it.

It's just you and JHC who are at war with the EU, none of the rest of us posting are, simply because, unlike both of you, we have kept our sanity on this subject.

I've come back in this morning only to find three more web pages of your joint obsessive attacks against the EU and continental countries on a subject that has nothing whatsoever to do with us. This is completely irrational behaviour by you both since we are now two months out of the EU and in any case the EU and it's medical experts are not opposing the use of any vaccine or delaying any use. It is only some continental countries temporarily delaying due to minding their own business well, just as we and particularly both of you should be doing.
.

When you lot stop knocking UK, Vaccine, roll out, single jab, Johnson, Government lackeys, Sage, Mhra, JCVI and everything else to do with UK we might stop saying it as it is.
EU has cocked up, you can't accept it. And their cock up affects us all. For a start they are trying to nick our vaccine, which you justify. So stop telling me I hate EU, I do not. I hate the way it is defended by such as you when they should be being criticised.
Macron, Von Leyen the entire EU system has failed Europe,and they are blaming UK, for jumping queu.
So, instead of knocking me, JHC and Susan for being objective perhaps you should have a good look at EU/France and how pandemic is developing over there... Then tell us a delay doesn't really matter. (as Susan explained yesterday)

 

[flecc]

When you lot stop knocking UK, Vaccine, roll out, single jab, Johnson, Government lackeys, Sage, Mhra, JCVI and everything else to do with UK we might stop saying it as it is.
EU has cocked up, you can't accept it. And their cock up affects us all. For a start they are trying to nick our vaccine, which you justify. So stop telling me I hate EU, I do not. I hate the way it is defended by such as you when they should be being criticised.
Macron, Von Leyen the entire EU system has failed Europe,and they are blaming UK, for jumping queu.
So, instead of knocking me, JHC and Susan for being objective perhaps you should have a good look at EU/France and how pandemic is developing over there... Then tell us a delay doesn't really matter. (as Susan explained yesterday)

You wouldn't know what objective means as your posts so clearly show.

Europe hasn't failed, it's doing little different from most of the rest of the world and better than many. It and they only look bad on vaccine uptake in relation to the UK due to the latter taking some huge and very premature risks which others were not prepared to take so soon. We only took those risks out of sheer desperation with our appalling performance in failing to control Covid-19, one which you and JHC have acknowledged as fact.
.

 

[Chainring]

I had not looked on this thread, as I thought it was all about Brexit, but it seems to have dragged the 'pandemic' in as well. I posted this on a separate thread.
I thought the end of the world was near when Brexit happened, but if you study what is going on, using a flu bug and a 'vaccine' as weapons, Brexit is almost an irrelevance:
Info courtesy of Alex Jones @infowars. (Probably in other places as well).



●”If I get vaccinated can I stop wearing a mask(s)?” (Unless you are exempt).

Government: “NO”

●”If I get vaccinated will the restaurants, bars, schools, fitness clubs, hair salons, etc. reopen and will people be able to get back to work like normal?

Government: “NO”

●”If I get vaccinated will I be resistant to Covid?”

Government: “Maybe. We don’t know exactly, but probably not.”

●”If I get vaccinated, at least I won’t be contagious to others – right?”

Government: “NO. the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission.”

●”If I get vaccinated, how long will the vaccine last?”

Government: “No one knows. All Covid “vaccines” are still in the experimental stage.”

● “If I get vaccinated, can I stop social distancing?”

Government: “NO”

● “If my parents, grandparents and myself all get vaccinated can we hug each other again?”

Government: “NO”

● “So what’s the benefit of getting vaccinated?”

Government: “Hoping that the virus won’t kill you.”

●”Are you sure the vaccine won’t injure or kill me?”

Government: “NO”

●”If statistically the virus won’t kill me (99.7% survival rate), why should I get vaccinated?”

Government: “To protect others.”

●”So if I get vaccinated, I can protect 100% of people I come in contact with?”

Government: “NO”

● “If I experience a severe adverse reaction, long-term effects (still unknown) or die from the vaccine will I (or my family) be compensated from the vaccine manufacture or the Government?”

Government: “NO – the government and vaccine manufacturer’s have 100% zero liability regarding this experimental drug”

So to summarize, the Covid19 “vaccine”…

Does not provide immunity

Does not eliminate the virus

Does not prevent death

Does not guarantee you won’t get it

Does not stop you from passing it on to others

Does not eliminate the need for travel bans

Does not eliminate the need for business closures

Does not eliminate the need for lockdowns!!!

--
Viruses are invisible - pandemics are not
If there had REALLY been a pandemic, you would have known

www.ukcolumn.org
www.rowner-destruction.co.uk
https://hugotalks.com/

 

[Zlatan]

I had not looked on this thread, as I thought it was all about Brexit, but it seems to have dragged the 'pandemic' in as well. I posted this on a separate thread.
I thought the end of the world was near when Brexit happened, but if you study what is going on, using a flu bug and a 'vaccine' as weapons, Brexit is almost an irrelevance:
Info courtesy of Alex Jones @infowars. (Probably in other places as well).



●”If I get vaccinated can I stop wearing a mask(s)?” (Unless you are exempt).

Government: “NO”

●”If I get vaccinated will the restaurants, bars, schools, fitness clubs, hair salons, etc. reopen and will people be able to get back to work like normal?

Government: “NO”

●”If I get vaccinated will I be resistant to Covid?”

Government: “Maybe. We don’t know exactly, but probably not.”

●”If I get vaccinated, at least I won’t be contagious to others – right?”

Government: “NO. the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission.”

●”If I get vaccinated, how long will the vaccine last?”

Government: “No one knows. All Covid “vaccines” are still in the experimental stage.”

● “If I get vaccinated, can I stop social distancing?”

Government: “NO”

● “If my parents, grandparents and myself all get vaccinated can we hug each other again?”

Government: “NO”

● “So what’s the benefit of getting vaccinated?”

Government: “Hoping that the virus won’t kill you.”

●”Are you sure the vaccine won’t injure or kill me?”

Government: “NO”

●”If statistically the virus won’t kill me (99.7% survival rate), why should I get vaccinated?”

Government: “To protect others.”

●”So if I get vaccinated, I can protect 100% of people I come in contact with?”

Government: “NO”

● “If I experience a severe adverse reaction, long-term effects (still unknown) or die from the vaccine will I (or my family) be compensated from the vaccine manufacture or the Government?”

Government: “NO – the government and vaccine manufacturer’s have 100% zero liability regarding this experimental drug”

So to summarize, the Covid19 “vaccine”…

Does not provide immunity

Does not eliminate the virus

Does not prevent death

Does not guarantee you won’t get it

Does not stop you from passing it on to others

Does not eliminate the need for travel bans

Does not eliminate the need for business closures

Does not eliminate the need for lockdowns!!!

--
Viruses are invisible - pandemics are not
If there had REALLY been a pandemic, you would have known

www.ukcolumn.org
www.rowner-destruction.co.uk
https://hugotalks.com/

That solves it for all of us then. No problem. Let's get partying.

 

[flecc]

I had not looked on this thread, as I thought it was all about Brexit, but it seems to have dragged the 'pandemic' in as well. I posted this on a separate thread.
I thought the end of the world was near when Brexit happened, but if you study what is going on, using a flu bug and a 'vaccine' as weapons, Brexit is almost an irrelevance:
Info courtesy of Alex Jones @infowars. (Probably in other places as well).



●”If I get vaccinated can I stop wearing a mask(s)?” (Unless you are exempt).

Government: “NO”

●”If I get vaccinated will the restaurants, bars, schools, fitness clubs, hair salons, etc. reopen and will people be able to get back to work like normal?

Government: “NO”

●”If I get vaccinated will I be resistant to Covid?”

Government: “Maybe. We don’t know exactly, but probably not.”

●”If I get vaccinated, at least I won’t be contagious to others – right?”

Government: “NO. the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission.”

●”If I get vaccinated, how long will the vaccine last?”

Government: “No one knows. All Covid “vaccines” are still in the experimental stage.”

● “If I get vaccinated, can I stop social distancing?”

Government: “NO”

● “If my parents, grandparents and myself all get vaccinated can we hug each other again?”

Government: “NO”

● “So what’s the benefit of getting vaccinated?”

Government: “Hoping that the virus won’t kill you.”

●”Are you sure the vaccine won’t injure or kill me?”

Government: “NO”

●”If statistically the virus won’t kill me (99.7% survival rate), why should I get vaccinated?”

Government: “To protect others.”

●”So if I get vaccinated, I can protect 100% of people I come in contact with?”

Government: “NO”

● “If I experience a severe adverse reaction, long-term effects (still unknown) or die from the vaccine will I (or my family) be compensated from the vaccine manufacture or the Government?”

Government: “NO – the government and vaccine manufacturer’s have 100% zero liability regarding this experimental drug”

So to summarize, the Covid19 “vaccine”…

Does not provide immunity

Does not eliminate the virus

Does not prevent death

Does not guarantee you won’t get it

Does not stop you from passing it on to others

Does not eliminate the need for travel bans

Does not eliminate the need for business closures

Does not eliminate the need for lockdowns!!!

--
Viruses are invisible - pandemics are not
If there had REALLY been a pandemic, you would have known

www.ukcolumn.org
www.rowner-destruction.co.uk
https://hugotalks.com/

The relatives and friends of the 120,000 in the UK alone who have died from Covid-19 know only too well that there has been and still is a pandemic.

What you've posted is an assumption that only partially successful defences mean the disease doesn't exist.

That's like saying that because you and your friends didn't get killed on the roads, road deaths don't exist.
.

 

[Zlatan]

You wouldn't know what objective means as your posts so clearly show.

Europe hasn't failed, it's doing little different from most of the rest of the world and better than many. It and they only look bad on vaccine uptake in relation to the UK due to the latter taking some huge and very premature risks which others were not prepared to take so soon. We only took those risks out of sheer desperation with our appalling performance in failing to control Covid-19, one which you and JHC have acknowledged as fact.
.

Yep, right. From the man who describes Chris Witty as a government lackey, giving a
lecture about objectivity. Brilliant. Only on here.
And of course Europe/EU has failed. We, ve done OK, perhaps well with 50% of target reached. In same time EU has averaged 10%? Israel 100%..?And EU hasn't failed. With Paris in lockdown and patients being taken out on trains when a faster roll out could, perhaps, have prevented this. But it hasn't failed... What constitutes failure Flecc?
And as Susan pointed out her parents locked up in Paris care home with no vaccine, 3 months after one bacame available. How on earth is that not abstract failure.

 

[flecc]

Yep, right. From the man who describes Chris Witty as a government lackey, giving a
lecture about objectivity. Brilliant. Only on here.

Since Chris Witty is a government employee so is their servant, he is definitively a lackey. That is its meaning, so it's a very objective statement.
.

 

[Danidl]

Hang on Danidl. Let's keep facts simple.
I, m 63,I had vaccine 5 weeks ago. (AZ) I, m more than happy with that and the wait for 2nd.
All my family (except grand kids) have had vaccine. (6 of us, ages 37 to 67).
You haven't had yours. First or 2nd,tet you supported this delay, jeep applauding EU stance, even tho Ireland ignored EMA and you now blame UK for hogging vaccines .
Your country chose to put its faith in EU procurement,which between EU, France and Germany etc etc have messed up.
AZ must feel same as us, are they dealing with EU or a list of 27 countries. On the one hand you agree with EU but then ignore their advice. Between Marvin, Merkel, delays, stopping trials and suspending roll out confidence has been seriously damaged, yet you harp on about supply, when in fact on numerous occasions folk have rolled up in EU for vaccines and been sent home on basis of safety precautions.
You can't make incessant stoppages and that not have an effect. Ireland should have come in with UK on Vaccine roll out. It's more natural historic partner. It didn't and now its our faults.
If EU(or who ever you want me to call it now) are having supply problems, which I doubt, there is nobody to blame but themselves. The problem is too many chiefs, not enough Indians. As is always case in EU.
Macron wants to blame AZ, EMA, the media, UK, Supply, the electorate, EU anybody but himself. He started it all. "quasi effective"???
You can't knock the product, the supplier, the source and not expect problems.
You get too involved with the numbers. They can be made to say what either side wish.
France has enough AZ to be vaccinating. It isn't. We are.

Which part of "Ireland ignored EMA" is true?. I have on multiple times described the process, and how seriously the EMA approched this . I even quoted chapter and verse, at each stage.
AZ knows exactly who they are dealing with. They signed a contract with the EU to supply 27 countries at a schedule and rate to be determined. The individual countries discussed between themselves at EU level how the divvy up would go. It is absolutely no difference between that and the NHS procurement of toilet paper which gets dispersed to hospitals
And absolutely yes Ireland and the other smaller EU countries, richer and poorer than us absolutely had to put our faith in the EU. Do you recall that France and Germany and Holland had formed a group called the Vaccine Alliance and had already negotiated a deal with AZ at the same time as the UK, for 850M Euro, and were strong armed by UVDL into the August EU deal instead?. Had that happened the UK would be languishing at their 15 M AZ first dose ceiling.
The problem is PRODUCTION, not anything else.
Do you not appreciate that the EUs EMA fast tracked the AZ application. The formal application was received by 12th. January and the licence issued 28th. January.

 

[Danidl]

I had not looked on this thread, as I thought it was all about Brexit, but it seems to have dragged the 'pandemic' in as well. I posted this on a separate thread.
I thought the end of the world was near when Brexit happened, but if you study what is going on, using a flu bug and a 'vaccine' as weapons, Brexit is almost an irrelevance:
Info courtesy of Alex Jones @infowars. (Probably in other places as well).



●”If I get vaccinated can I stop wearing a mask(s)?” (Unless you are exempt).

Government: “NO”

●”If I get vaccinated will the restaurants, bars, schools, fitness clubs, hair salons, etc. reopen and will people be able to get back to work like normal?

Government: “NO”

●”If I get vaccinated will I be resistant to Covid?”

Government: “Maybe. We don’t know exactly, but probably not.”

●”If I get vaccinated, at least I won’t be contagious to others – right?”

Government: “NO. the vaccine doesn’t stop transmission.”

●”If I get vaccinated, how long will the vaccine last?”

Government: “No one knows. All Covid “vaccines” are still in the experimental stage.”

● “If I get vaccinated, can I stop social distancing?”

Government: “NO”

● “If my parents, grandparents and myself all get vaccinated can we hug each other again?”

Government: “NO”

● “So what’s the benefit of getting vaccinated?”

Government: “Hoping that the virus won’t kill you.”

●”Are you sure the vaccine won’t injure or kill me?”

Government: “NO”

●”If statistically the virus won’t kill me (99.7% survival rate), why should I get vaccinated?”

Government: “To protect others.”

●”So if I get vaccinated, I can protect 100% of people I come in contact with?”

Government: “NO”

● “If I experience a severe adverse reaction, long-term effects (still unknown) or die from the vaccine will I (or my family) be compensated from the vaccine manufacture or the Government?”

Government: “NO – the government and vaccine manufacturer’s have 100% zero liability regarding this experimental drug”

So to summarize, the Covid19 “vaccine”…

Does not provide immunity

Does not eliminate the virus

Does not prevent death

Does not guarantee you won’t get it

Does not stop you from passing it on to others

Does not eliminate the need for travel bans

Does not eliminate the need for business closures

Does not eliminate the need for lockdowns!!!

--
Viruses are invisible - pandemics are not
If there had REALLY been a pandemic, you would have known

www.ukcolumn.org
www.rowner-destruction.co.uk
https://hugotalks.com/

As a feast of misinformation .. this takes some beating. Note it is only the UK ..and Perhaps Isreal, which gave immunity to producers.
There are no guarantees in life .. except death. What there are are probabilities.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

1. Since the UK never sent any AZ to the EU , stopping shipments would be very easy. Any AZ used in Europe was EU produced
2. There is an enthusiasm for the AZ and Pfizer here in Ireland.
3. The schedule for last week was for the medically vulnerable 16 + s to get the AZ , and that was halted, but has probably started today..I expect my son to contact me. We will then again be out of our allocation of AZ.
4. I become eligible in a weeks time for the over 70s allocations .. probably Pfizer.
And as is your practice, you ignore the facts and attack the person.
5. Of course the fraction of population partially vaccinated in the EU is smaller,even with double the rate ..its called Math. That was the point. The vaccine is not software it cannot be replicated and distributed exponentially,it must be constructed atom by atom. The UK snaffled the supply, the EU decided to share

That’s terrible. Over 70 and not due to be vaccinated for another week! I hope it happens.

Could you imagine if the U.K. Ireland situation was reversed. OG would never stop criticising.

 

[flecc]

What constitutes failure Flecc?

If Europe has failed, then almost all the world has failed. You cannot assess a lesser performance on the basis of one case in many hundreds being much better.

It's like saying that because we cannot run a 100 metres like Usain Bolt, then all of us fail to be able to run 100 metres.

It's more like the London Marathon, just be patient and almost all taking part will reach the finishing post eventually.
.

 

[Danidl]

That’s terrible. Over 70 and not due to be vaccinated for another week! I hope it happens.

Could you imagine if the U.K. Ireland situation was reversed. OG would never stop criticising.

You have misread .. Our all Ireland situation would have been immeasurably better had there been an All Ireland approach. Unfortunately the DUP with its slavish adherence to Westminster would not allow it. By June of last year, we were approaching NZ levels ...not there but close

 

[flecc]

That’s terrible. Over 70 and not due to be vaccinated for another week!

Now you are being silly again. A week delay is of little importance when we've been a year without a vaccine. That's especially true when the risk of catching Covid-19 is so small.
.

 

[Zlatan]

If Europe has failed, then almost all the world has failed. You cannot assess a lesser performance on the basis of one case in many hundreds being much better.

It's like saying that because we cannot run a 100 metres like Usain Bolt, then all of us fail to be able to run 100 metres.

It's more like the London Marathon, just be patient and almost all takimg part will reach the finishing post eventually.
.

Flecc, I accept it a marathon and not a sprint... But even in a marathon you must run from the start.
Let's assume France had mirrored our roll out.. How many people currently in ICU in Paris would be home? How many care home residents would already be enjoying grand kids visits. To say its not important to get a good start is writing off all those patients who could have avoided the illness, trouble and probably death. It's saying those at start are disposable. The countries all had a duty to get roll out going immediately and as fast as possible. EU/France have done exact opposite. Its simply isn't fair. Israel have shown world what is possible. We have tried. Should countries really be negotiating better prices. Just pay, as Israel did.

 

[Zlatan]

Now you are being silly again. A week delay is of little importance when we've been a year without a vaccine. That's especially true when the risk of catching Covid-19 is so small.
.

Tell that to folk currently in ICU. It's OK as long as its not me.
Not everybody can avoid mixing like we can flecc. I, ve not had a problem at all with lockdown. I know others don't share that luxury.
And, you are wrong. No, not everyone will cross finish line. All those who develop covid in very near future could have avoided it, had vaccine been got to them on time.
Its like saying getting everybody on life rafts doesn't matter when yacht is first sinking. The first on is just as important as last,
We should all have been treated like Israel citizens, or at least attempts to do so should have happened.
Telling folk the liferafts will sink, stopping their deployment to recheck and saying manufacturer of them is rubbish is beyond stupid. Macron should be prosecuted.

 

[Danidl]

Now you are being silly again. A week delay is of little importance when we've been a year without a vaccine. That's especially true when the risk of catching Covid-19 is so small.
.

The risk is small only because the behaviour has been modified, and curtailed. Of course I would like to do other things .. like ebike the 12Kms away , with my wife and have the prizewinning Fish and chips in the seaside restaurant while looking back at my village. Whereas at present ,I go down to the front 300 metres away and look over to where I know that restaurant is.

 

[Danidl]

Flecc, I accept it a marathon and not a sprint... But even in a marathon you must run from the start.
Let's assume France had mirrored our roll out.. How many people currently in ICU in Paris would be home? How many care home residents would already be enjoying grand kids visits. To say its not important to get a good start is writing off all those patients who could have avoided the illness, trouble and probably death. It's saying those at start are disposable. The countries all had a duty to get roll out going immediately and as fast as possible. EU/France have done exact opposite. Its simply isn't fair. Israel have shown world what is possible. We have tried. Should countries really be negotiating better prices. Just pay, as Israel did.

But France couldn't do that,or else the UKs rollout would have been halved , If France and Germany had done so, the UKs rollout would be 1/3 . If France ,Germany , Italy and Spain had dine so, the UK rollout would be 1/5 . That is the stark reality. It was not a question of money, It is production capacity.