Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

Of course we deny it, it simply isn't true and cannot be when so many Israeli citizens are strongly opposed to so many of their state's policies.

I've explained why I dislike of the State of Israel and there's not a single anti semitic element in it. How can there be when the Israeli State itself practices anti semitism.
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Thats a different argument flecc. Personally dont think one can dislike a state without showing a prejudiced nature. You obviously think differently. We, ll have to agree to disagree.
A State includes everything that State stands for. Actually think you only dislike certain elements. I, m going to Israel in December to visit friends. I, m certain your dislike of many aspects would be totally agreed with, your dislike of the State would be accepted but not understood.
I first visited Israel years ago and was shocked to find the tolerance of Palestinians and Jews living side by side. Unfortunately that seems to be in decline.
I dont really think its possible to dislike the State of Israel without disliking Jews in generalbut I, ve never enquired. Do any Jews outside Israel not believe the land to be their chosen home? I, m not sure. I, ll ask when there. I, ve simply assumed all Jews now, and always have, see Israel as their original "home" and not just since they were given it by UK and USA in 1947.????
Unfortunately with our modern view of history there simply is no solution without a massive change by one group or another.
And, obviously there is massive dislike of the States behaviour towards Palestine by Jews throughout the world, including those in Israel but again those same people would criticise those actions and not reach conclusion of disliking the state.

 

[flecc]

I dont really think its possible to dislike the State of Israel without disliking Jews in general

That isn't true as I've explained with all the factors of the state disliked. Those factors make it almost impossible for that State to behave in internationally acceptable ways since they avoid all the normal restraints that most countries have.

Whilst true that much of the abusive policies are due to Zionists like Benjamin Netanyahu, the State as it's formed and maintained increasingly favours such persons, since they reflect the views of that State's outside supporters.
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[Fingers]

The Jews did 911 didn't they?

 

[flecc]

The Jews did 911 didn't they?

Nice try. In fact the Israelis mainly only physically act beyond their local borders against nearby state's threatening actions. Their one military foray into Uganda's Entebbe airport was a rare exception to rescue terrorist hostages.

However, some Jews may have ridden on Stagecoach's mobility bus route 911 in Kent.
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[Zlatan]

That isn't true as I've explained with all the factors of the state disliked. Those factors make it almost impossible for that State to behave in internationally acceptable ways since they avoid all the normal restraints that most countries have.

Whilst true that much of the abusive policies are due to Zionists like Benjamin Netanyahu, the State as it's formed and maintained increasingly favours such persons, since they reflect the views of that State's outside supporters.
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But you are operating under premise the State only represents the aspects you associate with its negative aspects. The State actually means everything within Israel. Its Governance, its members, its organisations,everything.
As I pointed out in my reference to USA and Trump or even the UK and our current Government. Disliking the State is disliking everything within it and everything it represents. Do you dislike America because of Trump?
Or, more to the point, do you dislike the actual existence of the State of Israel? There are those that interpret disliking the State infers the latter. There are those that believe the State should not even exist?

 

[flecc]

But you are operating under premise the State only represents the aspects you associate with its negative aspects. The State actually means everything within Israel. Its Governance, its members, its organisations,everything.
As I pointed out in my reference to USA and Trump or even the UK and our current Government. Disliking the State is disliking everything within it and everything it represents. Do you dislike America because of Trump?
Or, more to the point, do you dislike the actual existence of the State of Israel? There are those that interpret disliking the State infers the latter. There are those that believe the State should not even exist?

This is a repeat of the questions answered in my previous post. I've explained why I dislike the State of Israel as it is constituted and supported. It's not about policies themselves but about why they come into being from a State set up in that way.

Clearly you don't seem to understand the difference and keep extending it to individual issues and persons. That is not what it is about.
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[Zlatan]

This is a repeat of the questions answered in my previous post. I've explained why I dislike the State of Israel as it is constituted and supported. It's not about policies themselves but about why they come into being from a State set up in that way.

Clearly you don't seem to understand the difference and keep extending it to individual issues and persons. That is not what it is about.
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Clearly you dont understand the concept of criticising a State's actions and not the entire State.
Or, as I asked earler, you dont think the State should even exist. A question you avoided.
And, as I said earlier, we should agree to disagree without resorting to saying the other does not understand.
I understand your point perfectly. I dont agree with it.

 

[flecc]

Clearly you dont understand the concept of criticising a State's actions and not the entire State.

No, you simply don't understand what I'm saying, which is not about the State's actions. Once again it's the nature of that State that causes the actions I'm challenging, not the actions themselves. The State of Israel exists, that is not in question, it's how it is able to exist as presently constituted and that unfair artificiality which I complain of, for the reasons explained.
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[Zlatan]

No, you simply don't understand what I'm saying, which is not about the State's actions. Once again it's the nature of that State that causes the actions I'm challenging, not the actions themselves. The State of Israel exists, that is not in question, it's how it is able to exist as presently constituted and that unfair artificiality which I complain of, for the reasons explained.
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Yes, I do understand.
You have yet again failed to answer the salient question.
You have inferred in past you question the right of the State of Israel to exist. I asked you last time and you failed to clarify the point. Obviously all States or countries carry out actions and have policies we dislike. We are allowed, and it is perfectly normal to dislike such but when that crosses over to dislike of the entire State along with your refusal tp answer should the state exist it is getting close to anti semitism. (Failure to recognise legitimacy of Israel is accepted as one of 3 major indicators of anti semitism)
So, to clarify, do you believe State of Israel should or should not exist in its current location?
Believing it should but being critical of its actions (as UN does) is not anti semitic. I, m not sure where you or more importantly where Corbyn stand.

 

[oldgroaner]

Back in the real world Nick Robinson rather gave Gove a "Going over" this morning on Radio 4

 

[Zlatan]

Back in the real world Nick Robinson rather gave Gove a "Going over" this morning on Radio 4

Gove in real world? Who is being daft this morning?

 

[flecc]

Yes, I do understand.
Believing it should but being critical of its actions (as UN does) is not anti semitic. I, m not sure where you or more importantly where Corbyn stand.

No you do not understand and not for the first time you interpret others posts into what you think they mean. I've made my meaning absolutely clear at length, but you cussedly refuse to accept it.

I've also answered the question of the Israeli state's existence. Of course I accept it's existence as fact, but feel it should have been created in a more healthy normal State form. That could be corrected if the USA would only back the UN on this issue, but that's unlikely of of course.

However I don't answer to you on such issues, nor do I answer for Corbyn and you really need to tone down the arrogance of your posting.
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[oldgroaner]

Gove in real world? Who is being daft this morning?

I'm always daft, in this mad world that equates with sanity.

 

[Zlatan]

No you do not understand and not for the first time you interpret others posts into what you think they mean. I've made my meaning absolutely clear at length, but you cussedly refuse to accept it.

I've also answered the question of the Israeli state's existence. Of course I accept it's existence as fact, but feel it should have been created in a more healthy normal State form. That could be corrected if the USA would only back the UN on this issue, but that's unlikely of of course.

However I don't answer to you on such issues, nor do I answer for Corbyn and you really need to tone down the arrogance of your posting.
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Accepting Israel exists as a fact is a given and has nothing at all to do with accepting its legitamacy.
You still failed to answer the question, perhaps you dont understand it. You, ve skirted around the issue.
I do not support Israel's actions on many many instances over past years but do see the States legitimacy as equal to any.
I wont be posting on this topic anymore, I, ll leave the arrogant posts to you,yours are better.

 

[Fingers]

Nice try. In fact the Israelis mainly only physically act beyond their local borders against nearby state's threatening actions. Their one military foray into Uganda's Entebbe airport was a rare exception to rescue terrorist hostages.

However, some Jews may have ridden on Stagecoach's mobility bus route 911 in Kent.
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It was a joke....

 

[flecc]

It was a joke....

And I answered with one.
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[flecc]

Accepting Israel exists as a fact is a given and has nothing at all to do with accepting its legitamacy.

You really are a cussed chump. I have accepted the existance of that State where it is as legitimate, they won the right to be there by the accepted practice of warfare.
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[Zlatan]

Good, but that is hardly unique now is it?

 

[Wicky]

Following Boris's chummy party political TV broadcast direct from Tory HQ making a cuppa...

...Yorkshire flooded Fishlake folk tell unpopular Boris in no uncertain terms to "f**k off"

 

[flecc]

Good, but that is hardly unique now is it?

The uniqueness is in the way the victory was endorsed, enhanced and supported. No other country on the planet had these ongoing benefits, and that is what I object to since they led directly to the racist abuses they practice.

That unique position could be rectified, leading to an end to the abuses.
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