Brexit, for once some facts.

[OxygenJames]

The industrial Revolution only benefited the people after a huge struggle to stop the persecution of those that had to work the machines
Amazing event if for instance you were not a Child worker
hildren were preferred workers in textile mills because they worked for lower wages. Child laborers tended to be orphans, children of widows, or from the poorest families. Children were needed for low pay and nimble fingers. Child labor was not an invention of the industrial revolution, they were first exploited by their parents on the farm. Now for the first time in history children were an important factor of an economic system but at a terrible price.

Here you are have a History lesson about the wonderful benefits of the Industrial Revolution
Like Brexit, the Rich gain and the poor lose, is the case of the Industrial Revolution, with shorter and miserable lives.


Children were required to work under machines and were constantly cleaning and oiling tight areas. Young children were worked to near exhaustion, to such an extent that they would fall asleep over machines. If they were caught sleeping or showed up to work late, they were beaten and tortured by their supervisors. Cruelty and torture were enacted on children by master-manufacturers to maintain high output or to keep them awake. The children’s bodies become crooked and deformed from the work in the mills and factories. Their bodies and bones became so weak that they couldn't hold themselves up, and their backs permanently hunched.[2] Children in the mines did not have it any better. They would start working at the age of 4 or 5, both boys and girls. A large proportion of children working in the mines were under 13 and a larger proportion from ages of 13-18. Mines were not built for stability, rather, they were small and low and children were needed to crawl through them. The conditions in the mines were not remotely safe, children would often have limbs crippled, and bodies distorted or be killed. Children could get lost within the mines for days at a time. The air in the mines was injuring to breathe and could cause painful and fatal diseases...

And there is a lot more on the link below
https://webs.bcp.org/sites/vcleary/modernworldhistorytextbook/industrialrevolution/IREffects.html

Rule Britannia? not at that price.

Oh yes. I was going to come back to this one to challenge your usual 'woe is me and the world is terrible' take on life.

The notion that child labour in either theory or practice was a result of the Industrial Revolution is diametrically opposed to reality.

Under mercantilism it was ideal to employ children almost from the age when they could walk, and, for example Colbert [Louis XIV’s Minister of Finance from 1665 to 1683] introduced fines for parents who did not put their six-year-old children to work in one of his particularly cherished industries.

The Industrial Revolution did not cause hunger, poverty or child labour. Those were always with us.

The Industrial Revolution actually helped to eliminate them - it started the process whereby we now have the lowest form of child-labour anytime in history.

Now you may do your usual ignoring this other point of view - but once in a while OG it's good to have your cherished opinions challenged.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I am planning for brexit...I have my invoices ready for deal or no deal brexit,just as my political masters have told me....but I ask the vat man what do I do about vat when selling to the EU...his answer'that has not yet been decided'....but I am told the government are ready?????.....yes they are ready once the government have decided.....so they are not ready....yes,we are ready once we are ready....that sounds something straight out of Yes Minister,you can almost hear Sir Humphry saying it,hehe Pleased to say we are ready when we are ready.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

Under mercantilism it was ideal to employ children almost from the age when they could walk, and, for example Colbert [Louis XIV’s Minister of Finance from 1665 to 1683] introduced fines for parents who did not put their six-year-old children to work in one of his particularly cherished industries.

True, and in this respect age is a concept rather than being fixed. Traditionally children have worked as soon as they were capable of tasks, irrespective of their chronical age. This was even true for me as recently as the 1940s, the first occasions from 8 years old and at 11 years old on working a 13 hour day (including school) for five days a week with 11 hours on Saturdays. I had Sundays off.

I'm reminded of an account from Africa. A Westerner was speaking with an African woman who was at her crop planting area, accompanied by her son who was quite obviously backward.

Wondering at the boy's age, he asked, guessing out loud at 12 years old. She replied, "When he knows to throw stones to keep the birds away, then he will be 12".

A very different concept of age than ours.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Nearest OG gets to happy is occasional bout of gloat. Its rumoured he smiled at turn of century but we all know he hasnt imbibed in happiness since.

That guilty conscience of yours is making you post nonsense

 

[oldgroaner]

Dont be cruel, he, s quite a looker for Hull. Thats why police havent found him yet.. He merges in perfect, look at OG's mug shot.. Male models.

Is that why we don't have your likeness as an avatar?

 

[oldgroaner]

Tomorrow she stands in front of the MPs and says nothing has changed. And thats a good thing!

Then on the 14th the MPs will vote it down. 'With a heavy heart'. She will then say time to get ready for a hard brexit. The shouty voiced woman will threaten to resign. Corbyn will watch on with that vacant look on his face. The EU will say it will not go back and change anything but will find a way to change something. That will get voted down. May will say she has done what she can.

Plus Ca Change Daniboy Plus ca change

Then they will sign her "Revised" deal

 

[Fingers]

That guilty conscience of yours is making you post nonsense

Please stick to the topic.

Thank you.

 

[tommie]

Obviously a fallow day for real Brexit news.!

Yes a slow news day, ...trade Deal with the Swiss... and JC called for the EU to be `defeated`

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1095002665061412865

but at last a good news story from the ROI
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47196559

 

[oldgroaner]

Oh yes. I was going to come back to this one to challenge your usual 'woe is me and the world is terrible' take on life.

The notion that child labour in either theory or practice was a result of the Industrial Revolution is diametrically opposed to reality.

Under mercantilism it was ideal to employ children almost from the age when they could walk, and, for example Colbert [Louis XIV’s Minister of Finance from 1665 to 1683] introduced fines for parents who did not put their six-year-old children to work in one of his particularly cherished industries.

The Industrial Revolution did not cause hunger, poverty or child labour. Those were always with us.

The Industrial Revolution actually helped to eliminate them - it started the process whereby we now have the lowest form of child-labour anytime in history.

Now you may do your usual ignoring this other point of view - but once in a while OG it's good to have your cherished opinions challenged.

Once again as always, you have failed utterly to make a convincing argument

Child labour has always been with us within the family the industrial revolution transfomed and institutionalised that and added exploitation cruelty and danger as well.
It placed children in the hands of sadists in the factories and caused untold misery
You posted
"The Industrial Revolution did not cause hunger, poverty or child labour. Those were always with us."

Good grief how blind can you be? it multiplied and expanded the problem by several degrees of magitude, you should be ashamed of yourself by pretending otherwise, but then what you represent prefers profit to humanity at any cost under the maxim

Make the Rich richer and kick the backsides of the poor to make them work harder
And the other even worse lie was this line

"The Industrial Revolution actually helped to eliminate them - it started the process whereby we now have the lowest form of child-labour anytime in history."

No it didn't! the Unions did that against huge opposition from vested interests of the sort of Right wing nutters you support

Omitting the important facts s about history isn't going to change it. Union power curbed the excesses of the sort of people you idolise, otherwise children would still be exploited in the same way , so please learn a little genuine History instead of coughing up something that looks liked it leaked from the Adam Smith institute

 

[oldgroaner]

Please stick to the topic.

Thank you.

So your post was sticking to the topic was it? take your own advice

 

[oldgroaner]

Yes a slow news day, ...trade Deal with the Swiss... and JC called for the EU to be `defeated`

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1095002665061412865

but at last a good news story from the ROI
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47196559

Tommie you really should have listened to the Broadcast, he wasn't just attacking the EU but the whole way the west is organised.
Mr Corbyn told a left wing rally in 2010: "They, the world's bankers, International Monetary Fund, European Union, they are utterly united in what they want. Utterly united in deflation, suppressing the economy, and creating unemployment. Utterly united in that.
"We need to be equally united, not just across every union in this country and every community in this country and every social demand in this country, but all across Europe and internationally to show that the voice of those campaigning for peace, justice and socialism.
"We will not be silenced by these people. We will win through. We will defeat them and we will win that decency that we want in this world."

This had nothing whatever with leaving the EU and it's part in it would have been best tackled from the inside as a member.
You just saw something that you thought you could score Brownie points with Fake News from 2010 didn't you?

 

[tommie]

Yep.. i jut did

thank-you for your correction...

don`t let it happen again!!

 

[OxygenJames]

Interesting stuff from Douglas Carswell just now (OG will probably agree with every word - well right up till the very last sentence which I very much doubt he will like):

"A generation ago, as various nationalised industries were privatised, it quickly became apparent that they had been badly run for years. Once British Telecom was publicly-listed, it came to light that a large number of those old-style public pay phones didn’t work. Thames Water’s accounts showed that a large volume of the water in their network of pipes leaked away.

A new system of corporate governance, in other words, exposed a number of previous inadequacies. Brexit is having a similar effect, not on businesses in Britain, but on the way our country is run.

Already, the mere process of getting us out of the EU has exposed the most extraordinary deficiencies of those at the top. Look at the serially poor judgement shown by May and many of her ministers over the past two years; agreeing to a sequencing of the negotiations and then a backstop they should never have accepted.

This basic failure to think through the implications of what was in front of them has been matched by their willingness to defer to civil servants, many of whom clearly aren’t up to the task of making such decisions either.

It is sobering to think that those who have proved unequal to the task of getting us out of the EU are also in charge of all those other areas of public policy making. Surely you don’t imagine that their judgement is any better when it comes to running public services or deciding on our foreign policy priorities?

“The trouble is that those implementing Brexit don’t believe in it” some suggest. Yes. But perhaps what Brexit reveals is that they don’t believe in much at all.

There is not just a lack of vision and verve as to the opportunities that come with leaving the EU. When was the last time you heard a minister outline a really compelling vision of how we might achieve a better system of health care or education? Or how we might harness technological change to improve the human condition?

It wouldn’t be fair to blame our membership of the EU alone for all of the inadequacies of our political class — although being in a top down technocracy that tries to organise everything by official fiat has certainly encouraged political managerialism. For as long as anyone can remember, whichever party was in office, there have been only two basic types of public policy on offer.

First there are those measures politicians take that have the effect of restricting the supply of things. From housing to credit, nursery places or defence equipment the effect of much public administration is to reduce provision in some way, even if unintentionally.

The second type of public policy is the kind designed to then deal with the inevitable consequences of restricting supply in the first place, usually through some form of subsidised demand.

With not enough houses built, for example, schemes like Help to Buy offer cheap loans to first time buyers, without adding a single extra home to the nation’s housing stock. With firms unable to get loans, a state-backed bank gives out state-backed credit. With the cost of child care pushed sky high, ministers create schemes to subsidise places. With only a handful of contractors able to bid for procurement contracts, ever greater sums of public money are hosed on a handful of suppliers.

Beyond Brexit, this is going to have to change. Outside the EU, we will have to raise our game in all sorts of ways. Like those that ran nationalised industries discovered, there will no longer be a set of ready-made excuses for managerialism.

This is going to mean the replacement of many of those that aren’t up to the task of public administration. It also means changing the type of public administration, with policies that remove restrictions on supply, and render redundant the different forms of subsidised demand.

Once we are outside the EU, many of the assumptions about public policy will be up for grabs.

For me, leaving the European Union has always been about change and being able to find new opportunities for our country. By exposing the shortcomings of our current political class, and emphasising the need for change, Brexit is in a way already working."

 

[oldgroaner]

Yep.. i jut did

No Tommie you demonstrated that you don't bother to read or listen to the thing you posted, and you didn't understand the speech either.

 

[50Hertz]

Once again as always, you have failed utterly to make a convincing argument

Child labour has always been with us within the family the industrial revolution transfomed and institutionalised that and added exploitation cruelty and danger as well.
It placed children in the hands of sadists in the factories and caused untold misery
You posted
"The Industrial Revolution did not cause hunger, poverty or child labour. Those were always with us."

Good grief how blind can you be? it multiplied and expanded the problem by several degrees of magitude, you should be ashamed of yourself by pretending otherwise, but then what you represent prefers profit to humanity at any cost under the maxim

Make the Rich richer and kick the backsides of the poor to make them work harder
And the other even worse lie was this line

"The Industrial Revolution actually helped to eliminate them - it started the process whereby we now have the lowest form of child-labour anytime in history."

No it didn't! the Unions did that against huge opposition from vested interests of the sort of Right wing nutters you support

Omitting the important facts s about history isn't going to change it. Union power curbed the excesses of the sort of people you idolise, otherwise children would still be exploited in the same way , so please learn a little genuine History instead of coughing up something that looks liked it leaked from the Adam Smith institute

I agree with most of that. Conditions in early factories / mills were appalling and those conditions didn’t change because the owners had a sudden onset of benevolence. They were forced into providing better working conditions very much against their will.

I also profoundly disagree with the use of child labour in factories. The standard of craftsmanship is nowhere near that of an adult.

 

[oldgroaner]

Interesting stuff from Douglas Carswell just now (OG will probably agree with every word - well right up till the very last sentence which I very much doubt he will like):

"A generation ago, as various nationalised industries were privatised, it quickly became apparent that they had been badly run for years. Once British Telecom was publicly-listed, it came to light that a large number of those old-style public pay phones didn’t work. Thames Water’s accounts showed that a large volume of the water in their network of pipes leaked away.

A new system of corporate governance, in other words, exposed a number of previous inadequacies. Brexit is having a similar effect, not on businesses in Britain, but on the way our country is run.

Already, the mere process of getting us out of the EU has exposed the most extraordinary deficiencies of those at the top. Look at the serially poor judgement shown by May and many of her ministers over the past two years; agreeing to a sequencing of the negotiations and then a backstop they should never have accepted.

This basic failure to think through the implications of what was in front of them has been matched by their willingness to defer to civil servants, many of whom clearly aren’t up to the task of making such decisions either.

It is sobering to think that those who have proved unequal to the task of getting us out of the EU are also in charge of all those other areas of public policy making. Surely you don’t imagine that their judgement is any better when it comes to running public services or deciding on our foreign policy priorities?

“The trouble is that those implementing Brexit don’t believe in it” some suggest. Yes. But perhaps what Brexit reveals is that they don’t believe in much at all.

There is not just a lack of vision and verve as to the opportunities that come with leaving the EU. When was the last time you heard a minister outline a really compelling vision of how we might achieve a better system of health care or education? Or how we might harness technological change to improve the human condition?

It wouldn’t be fair to blame our membership of the EU alone for all of the inadequacies of our political class — although being in a top down technocracy that tries to organise everything by official fiat has certainly encouraged political managerialism. For as long as anyone can remember, whichever party was in office, there have been only two basic types of public policy on offer.

First there are those measures politicians take that have the effect of restricting the supply of things. From housing to credit, nursery places or defence equipment the effect of much public administration is to reduce provision in some way, even if unintentionally.

The second type of public policy is the kind designed to then deal with the inevitable consequences of restricting supply in the first place, usually through some form of subsidised demand.

With not enough houses built, for example, schemes like Help to Buy offer cheap loans to first time buyers, without adding a single extra home to the nation’s housing stock. With firms unable to get loans, a state-backed bank gives out state-backed credit. With the cost of child care pushed sky high, ministers create schemes to subsidise places. With only a handful of contractors able to bid for procurement contracts, ever greater sums of public money are hosed on a handful of suppliers.

Beyond Brexit, this is going to have to change. Outside the EU, we will have to raise our game in all sorts of ways. Like those that ran nationalised industries discovered, there will no longer be a set of ready-made excuses for managerialism.

This is going to mean the replacement of many of those that aren’t up to the task of public administration. It also means changing the type of public administration, with policies that remove restrictions on supply, and render redundant the different forms of subsidised demand.

Once we are outside the EU, many of the assumptions about public policy will be up for grabs.

For me, leaving the European Union has always been about change and being able to find new opportunities for our country. By exposing the shortcomings of our current political class, and emphasising the need for change, Brexit is in a way already working."

And just what is this change going to be? let's hear how your selling out to America is going to "Bring this country round and make it succesful"
Just who, and how are we to suddenly have in place an administration that has the nous to run the country successfully?

Right now
What is your great plan for this? come on, we have had "We could!" as the plan for the last two years.
Brexit is almost here , are you proposing we go on with "We could" as a plan?
Or are you proposing we sell out the running of this Union of Nations to Foreigners?

Who is going to do these things?
"Once we are outside the EU, many of the assumptions about public policy will be up for grabs."
Who will be doing the Grabbing?
No plan there is there?

"For me, leaving the European Union has always been about change and being able to find new opportunities for our country."
Who is going to do this? liam Fox?
Once again No plan is there

You wasted your time with that post it amounted to absolutely nothing positive about our future
The truth is you are behaving exactly as Boris did before the referendum
Where's your Red Bus? OJ? What is the Big plan?
You haven't got one you say?

Project "We could" is just another Fairy Tale, isn't it?

The real plan you have is to sell the country to the highest bidder which is likely to be the USA

 

[OxygenJames]

Once again as always, you have failed utterly to make a convincing argument

Child labour has always been with us within the family the industrial revolution transfomed and institutionalised that and added exploitation cruelty and danger as well.
It placed children in the hands of sadists in the factories and caused untold misery
You posted
"The Industrial Revolution did not cause hunger, poverty or child labour. Those were always with us."

Good grief how blind can you be? it multiplied and expanded the problem by several degrees of magitude, you should be ashamed of yourself by pretending otherwise, but then what you represent prefers profit to humanity at any cost under the maxim

Make the Rich richer and kick the backsides of the poor to make them work harder
And the other even worse lie was this line

"The Industrial Revolution actually helped to eliminate them - it started the process whereby we now have the lowest form of child-labour anytime in history."

No it didn't! the Unions did that against huge opposition from vested interests of the sort of Right wing nutters you support

Omitting the important facts s about history isn't going to change it. Union power curbed the excesses of the sort of people you idolise, otherwise children would still be exploited in the same way , so please learn a little genuine History instead of coughing up something that looks liked it leaked from the Adam Smith institute

Yeah. I was never convinced you were going to like that. Oh well. Human progress is hard to believe. But the facts speak for themselves. Facts you're not interested in though. Shame.

 

[Fingers]

Yeah. I was never convinced you were going to like that. Oh well. Human progress is hard to believe. But the facts speak for themselves. Facts you're not interested in though. Shame.

You should be commended for trying James.

 

[Fingers]

As predicted

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/11/may-to-ask-mps-for-further-fortnights-grace-in-brexit-talks

 

[tommie]

As predicted

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/11/may-to-ask-mps-for-further-fortnights-grace-in-brexit-talks

Yes, not long to go now