Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldtom]

If you don't understand these basic facts maybe you should read up some more? I have no doubt you could understand these basic facts if you made the effort to do so...

He may well have a degree of intelligence but he is an internet troll and his raison d'être is not to offer accurate, opinion, predicated in facts; his mission is to disrupt, bedevil and generally annoy forum contributors, from which he derives a perverse pleasure.

Tom

 

[flecc]

It does seem to me that dealing with Juncker/Barnier direct isn’t going to work. We need to know what aspects other countries want over a larger, more broad stroke type of agreement such as EU citizen rights, security, movement etc.

I know what you mean, but the trouble was that we were obstructed from finding that out from the outset. Phase one of the leaving talks was to set a structure and the EU insisted we could only negotiate through their negotiator, not with individual countries.

David Cameron tried to bypass that in his trip around Europe's leaders but found them united against discussing the matter, and they still seem remakably in unison on this, despite their many internal differences.

I think in truth we messed up long ago in our repeatedly refusing to fully join into the EU and always demanding special treatment. The result is that they are fed up with us and our behaviour and most of them couldn't care less if we do walk out without a deal. At most they lose 8% of their export business which they can afford to, while we lose 44%.

That's not a strong position for us to be in.
.

 

[flecc]

I think borders sovereignty was a huge issue but ultimately people just want a trade deal with European countries. We didn’t want an army. A federation etc.

You're right, most here didn't want those additions. But I think immigration was also a very big issue for a high proportion of Leavers, though perhaps not so much now that they've seen much needed nurses, doctors and building workers leaving us in droves.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Sure.

The exit period will be extended as we come to an agreement over a trade deal that respects each members wishes including ours.

David Davis made the same mistake,if we leave on March 29 without a deal there is no transition deal.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

I did make in one of my infrequent comment about UK Politicans, that I cannot and could not understand why an opposition would not oppose.

Surely it's only sensible to oppose when disagreeing? The current Labour opposition do oppose on many issues, but are not against leaving the EU so have nothing to oppose on that issue. I'd prefer they represent the public opposition of the Remainers, but I don't write their manifesto.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I think borders sovereignty was a huge issue but ultimately people just want a trade deal with European countries. We didn’t want an army. A federation etc.

The Leavers I spoke to voted Leave because of the following...
1. They considered the EU to be unelected and not democratic,full of corruption.
2. They liked the sound of 'taking back control'
3. They wanted control of immigration.
4. They liked the £350 million per week going to the NHS
5. Not paying the EU £11 billion per annum
6. They were told we could still trade with the EU and do trade deals of our own with the rest of the world.
No mention of an army.
1. Probably true but what government isnt corrupt!!!
2. The opposite has happened May's deal gives more control over us,especially if the backstop comes into play,which it will!!!
3. Not true,the immigration most were concerned about was from Africa and we have the right but dont stop that.
4. A Boris lie.
5. Actually we get a lot back from the EU,every day we hear of another cost that is a result of quitting the EU.
6. A lie.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-explains-us-food-standards-maggots/
""That would have looked great on the side of a bus, wouldn't it? We send £350m a week to the EU, why can't we eat one to two pounds of flies, maggots of mites each year instead."

It would be a lot healthier than McDonalds or Kentucky Fried Chicken. Many healthy human populations already eat such arthropods regularly and have done for countless thousands of years.
.

 

[oyster]

Polly Toynbee, again:

Get on with it? No, May’s Brexit plan was a disaster from day one

Polly Toynbee
The prime minister sought to appease hardliners and ended up with the worst kind of deal. Her letter to the people is hogwash

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/26/theresa-may-brexit-plan-disaster-letter

 

[Woosh]

David Davis made the same mistake,if we leave on March 29 without a deal there is no transition deal.
KudosDave

some of the ERG MPs would be happy to do a mini deal, pay half the money and do without the 2 years transition plus some quick agreements to keep the planes flying.
The main problem is the NI backstop. No backstop, no mini deal.

 

[oldgroaner]

Surely it's only sensible to oppose when diagreeing? The current Labour opposition do oppose on many issues, but are not against leaving the EU so have nothing to oppose on that issue. I'd prefer they represent the public opposition of the Remainers, but I don't write their manifesto.
.

Lets be honest flecc manifesto/s
there appear to be numerous competing ones depending who is being asked
Labour Party principles over Brexit appear to be be
"You don't like my principles?
Well, I have others.

Groucho would have been proud of them

 

[Danidl]

some of the ERG MPs would be happy to do a mini deal, pay half the money and do without the 2 years transition plus some quick agreements to keep the planes flying.
The main problem is the NI backstop. No backstop, no mini deal.

Woosh.. why are you also trying to rewrite history?. There will be no mini deal, no half money , no quick agreements. It's over.

What now exists is a totally UK dilemma and is within the SOLE power of the UK Parliament. EU is no longer an actor.

Accept a poor deal in the totality of which is offered..all 530 pages. Every fair minded person thinks its a poor deal, .. what we might differ on is the why.

Crash out...no deals, no aircraft flights, etc no transition. And even worse position

Vote to recind the Article 50 letter..and hope the EU plays ball. That is a hope I share.

The UK has painted itself into a corner.

I take no joy in any of this, except perhaps the minor satisfaction that it has progressed along a path I anticipated . Except that the terms offered to the UK are a little better than I expected.

 

[oldgroaner]

It would be a lot healthier than McDonalds or Kentucky Fried Chicken. Many healthy human populations already eat such arthropods regularly and have done for countless thousands of years.
.

That must put America ahead of the curve as they have apparently and without their knowledge been eating them for years!

 

[flecc]

Labour Party principles over Brexit appear to be be
"You don't like my principles?
Well, I have others.

One might say that's a true democracy.
.

 

[flecc]

That must put America ahead of the curve as they have apparently and without their knowledge been eating them for years!

Indeed and benefitting. Despite the scale of their gross obesity, no NHS and widespread severe deprivation, their life expectancy is close to ours.
.

 

[Woosh]

Woosh.. why are you also trying to rewrite history?. There will be no mini deal, no half money , no quick agreements. It's over.

What now exists is a totally UK dilemma and is within the SOLE power of the UK Parliament. EU is no longer an actor.

Accept a poor deal in the totality of which is offered..all 530 pages. Every fair minded person thinks its a poor deal, .. what we might differ on is the why.

Crash out...no deals, no aircraft flights, etc no transition. And even worse position

Vote to recind the Article 50 letter..and hope the EU plays ball. That is a hope I share.

The UK has painted itself into a corner.

I take no joy in any of this, except perhaps the minor satisfaction that it has progressed along a path I anticipated . Except that the terms offered to the UK are a little better than I expected.

there is a very real risk that TM won't get her deal through parliament after Christmas. In that case, the UK may very well end up with a brexiteer PM.
Under the circumstance, both the UK and the EU would want to have a mini deal to keep the planes flying after brexit day.
It's not rewiting anything, just a practical consideration.

 

[oldgroaner]

One might say that's a true democracy.
.

Here is CCTV footage from the Brexit debate in the HOC
Spot the various MP's in the Debate

 

[Woosh]

Boris Johnson:

While half the Cabinet is telling businesses the UK will effectively remain in the Customs Union & Single Market, the PM continues to say we will take back control of our laws, vary our tariffs & be able to do real free trade deals. They can’t both be right. Which is it?

Parliament will have to make a very difficult choice, TM's deal means exactly what BJ said, if they vote for TM's deal, they buy time for public opinion to turn against brexit. If they don't, either people are asked to vote in this case the conservative party will be split or the conservatives will put up a brexiteer PM.

and BJ said this about TM v JC debate (09-Dec):

Debates are great for democracy - but rather than widening discourse, this debate is narrowing it by offering a false choice between May’s failing deal and Corbyn’s vague proposals - neither of which are Brexit.
There is no point having a debate with two people who voted Remain & deals that don’t take back control. Any debate must involve someone who believes in Brexit & the British people being fully in control of their laws, rather than giving back control to the EU like the PM's deal.

If the debate is a re-run of the last TV debates on ITV, Remainers were found unconvincing because people would prefer simple arguments.

 

[Fingers]

Why are you using the present and future tenses for something which is now past tense?. The withdrawal agreement exists, it is now history. The only game left is whether the UK Parliament accepts or rejects it. A few days AFTER the referendum,the EU leadership,who were stunned by the decision, made an internal decision that they would act as one.,for the purposes of the withdrawal agreement. ,So it was always going to be Barnier . The UK attempted on a number of occasions to fracture that unity..
In starting the talks about future trade deals, the individual EU countries do have different wants and desires, so the process is going to be tortured. If the UK accepts the agreement that has been agreed, they do have an indefinite period of time to remain close to the EU ,and perhaps ,(forlorn hope as it maybe), come to their senses. ,and seek to reapply for full membership.
The logic of your position is strained with the comment." This was always about trade". If it were then why would the UK have tried to turn it's back on its most lucrative market?. What Mrs Mays current dilemma is to finally recognise this and marry it to the " taking back of our borders and making our own laws " narrative.

Without going over the same arguments over and over again. I disagree that anything is set in stone. You don't.

By trade I mean that's what we see the EU as. A trading block. Not a means to build an army etc.

 

[oldtom]

Here is CCTV footage from the Brexit debate in the HOC

Excellent! One of the great scenes from one of the best comedies Hollywood ever produced. For me, 'The Great Race' is one of the outstanding movies of all time. I have watched it three times in English and once in Spanish and it is equally funny in each language. I suspect the film would be funny in any language. I know it's a little but it's in the spirit of ridiculous humour, just like 'Brexit'!

Tom

 

[anotherkiwi]

Without going over the same arguments over and over again. I disagree that anything is set in stone. You don't.

By trade I mean that's what we see the EU as. A trading block. Not a means to build an army etc.

When was the idea to have an EU army born? Quite recently when a certain Trump threw a spanner in the works menacing to pull out of NATO. It was after the brexit vote so your comment about an army is irrelevant here. This is the brexit facts thread...