Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

You could also ask remainers similarly difficult questions, like why have successive governments pushed so many poorer people into personal debts, why they have not solved youth unemployment and why they sold council houses.

I can answer that, because of corrupt Government here, and now it is about to assume even more power over the people to exploit them.

If you fall for lies and keep voting for more of the same, what else can be expected, and it will only get worse outside the EU
That wasn't a difficult question at all as it concerned the policies of the UK Government
Care to ask a difficult question next time?

 

[oldtom]

You could also ask remainers similarly difficult questions, like why have successive governments pushed so many poorer people into personal debts, why they have not solved youth unemployment and why they sold council houses.

Can you please think before you put these daft points of yours into print?

Why would I want to single out 'remainers' to ask about the lunacy of tory government decisions that affect people all across the political and social spectrum?

As I have stated previously, the UK has never had a socialist government since 1979 - only rampant, unchecked capitalism has been the principle followed by government for the last 38 years.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

I had forgotten about this piece of news from a couple of weeks ago but it's something that should make people in the west, particularly those in NATO countries very frightened.

This manoeuvre, authorised by President Obama, has not (yet) been reversed by Trump and is yet another example of America sticking its nose into other people's business when they should by now know better.

Mrs Mayhem, of course, goes to the US and lavishes praise on the most dangerous man on the planet right now but will she advise him the Poland expedition is unwise for the world? Mmm!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38592448

Tom

 

[Woosh]

I can answer that, because of corrupt Government here, and now it is about to assume even more power over the people to exploit them.

If you fall for lies and keep voting for more of the same, what else can be expected, and it will only get worse outside the EU
That wasn't a difficult question at all as it concerned the policies of the UK Government
Care to ask a difficult question next time?

let's make a case for brexit by pointing out that the EU will work well with consensus politics, like in Germany and nordic countries, and not with two party systems like the one in the UK.
The single market favours globalization, to the detriment of poorer people who get pushed into personal debts.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

You could also ask remainers similarly difficult questions, like why have successive governments pushed so many poorer people into personal debts, why they have not solved youth unemployment and why they sold council houses.

I hope you posted this trying to be funny, or wind people up.

Because if you're seriously suggesting any of those problems are caused by the EU, or solved by leaving the EU, then I'm afraid you are falling into the problem that frustrates so many "remainers".

Your issue is with the UK government.

None of those issues are leave / remain related.

My head just hit my desk.

We're doomed. This is why it should never have been put to the public vote.

 

[oldtom]

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right - here I am, happy in the middle with EU.



Tom

 

[oldtom]

None of those issues are leave / remain related.

My head just hit my desk.

We're doomed. This is why it should never have been put to the public vote.

Thank God I'm not the only one! No doubt though the troll will pop in before long and express the view that it's a brilliant post from the budget bike seller.

Tom

 

[Woosh]

Can you please think before you put these daft points of yours into print?

Why would I want to single out 'remainers' to ask about the lunacy of tory government decisions that affect people all across the political and social spectrum?

As I have stated previously, the UK has never had a socialist government since 1979 - only rampant, unchecked capitalism has been the principle followed by government for the last 38 years.

Tom

Tom, the links of those policies to the EU are there if you bother to give me a little bit of consideration before posting your reply.
The EU, or more precisely, the single market, is the Thatcherite idea of the EEC. The tories pushed for it and expanded it Eastward. It has succeeded beyond their widest dream: restoring growth here in the UK, that is to keep them in power because they succeeded while Labour wasn't working. However, what they don't like, is a socially integrated 'soft' Europe so they want out of closer union and retain only an FTA.

 

[Woosh]

I hope you posted this trying to be funny, or wind people up.

Because if you're seriously suggesting any of those problems are caused by the EU, or solved by leaving the EU, then I'm afraid you are falling into the problem that frustrates so many "remainers".

Your issue is with the UK government.

None of those issues are leave / remain related.

My head just hit my desk.

We're doomed. This is why it should never have been put to the public vote.

No, far from it.
Brexit can be the best thing that happens to UK politics.
1. greater participation: large section of our voters fell asleep while relying on the EU to challenge our UK government
2. move toward a plural, consensual politics

 

[Zlatan]

Thank God I'm not the only one! No doubt though the troll will pop in before long and express the view that it's a brilliant post from the budget bike seller.

Tom

I don't need to post anymore, everybody has got your measure.
Just answer this Tom, why cant you simply disagree with other's opinions, offer your own and move on. You always have to insult.
And yes, it was a good reasoned post, made in a civil manner, without insult.

 

[flecc]

the EU will work well with consensus politics, like in Germany and nordic countries, and not with two party systems like the one in the UK.

Perhaps we are closer to consensus politics than you suspect. We've already had the one coalition government and the tories only had a very marginal win this time and are working their way out of favour. Labour and the Liberals are down in strength, the SNP much stronger, with UKIP and the Greens in the wings with possibilities.

I can see plenty of possibilities of two or three party coalitions in the next few decades, making us more like the mainland Europeans. In contrast, I can't see any possibility of either a tory or labour overwhelming victory of the sort we used to have long ago. The public are too disillusioned with both the main parties to get strongly behind either.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Cannot understand why Corbyn didn't suggest that Labour MP's had a free vote on the Article 50 bill. By having a whip he has alienated himself from half his MP's,has stirred up a big split in his own party and rejected all the Remainers in the UK.
Corbyn is destroying the Labour Party.
The man who drafted Article 50 has just stated on TV that Article 50 can be withdrawn at a later date,there is a court case in Dublin that is asking that same question.
KudosDave

 

[oldtom]

No, far from it.
Brexit can be the best thing that happens to UK politics.
1. greater participation: large section of our voters fell asleep while relying on the EU to challenge our UK government
2. move toward a plural, consensual politics

Yet more nonsense!

I will concede the highly unlikely but possibility of that outcome in your first statement about 'Brexit'.

As for (1), Greater participation in what? Also, which people in the UK would have wanted the EU to challenge the UK government? Why would the EU even attempt to interfere with the internal matters of a sovereign state? Moreover, I rather think that large numbers of the population would have been up in arms, had the EU tried to influence our government in any way.

And for (2), How would 'Brexit' help the UK move towards a plural, consensual kind of politics? In any case, I would imagine that most people would describe the kind of democracy we have, albeit not very good, as exactly that already. Isn't that a reasonable definition of a parliamentary democracy?

Tom

 

[tillson]

Thank God I'm not the only one! No doubt though the troll will pop in before long and express the view that it's a brilliant post from the budget bike seller.

Tom

This is a good reason to vote BREXIT.

 

[Woosh]

Perhaps we are closer to consensus politics than you suspect. We've already had the one coalition government and the tories only had a very marginal win this time and are working their way out of favour. Labour and the Liberals are down in strength, the SNP much stronger, with UKIP and the Greens in the wings with possibilities.

I can see plenty of possibilities of two or three party coalitions in the next few decades, making us more like the mainland Europeans. In contrast, I can't see any possibility of either a tory or labour overwhelming victory of the sort we used to have long ago. The public are too disillusioned with both the main parties to get strongly behind either.
.

Maybe but most labour voters still treat the smaller parties as a joke while they should really look for opportunities to keep the tories out.
Would we see one day a grand coalition, German style?

 

[Woosh]

Corbyn is destroying the Labour Party.

Sometime I do wonder.

 

[Woosh]

Yet more nonsense!

I will concede the highly unlikely but possibility of that outcome in your first statement about 'Brexit'.

As for (1), Greater participation in what? Also, which people in the UK would have wanted the EU to challenge the UK government? Why would the EU even attempt to interfere with the internal matters of a sovereign state? Moreover, I rather think that large numbers of the population would have been up in arms, had the EU tried to influence our government in any way.

And for (2), How would 'Brexit' help the UK move towards a plural, consensual kind of politics? In any case, I would imagine that most people would describe the kind of democracy we have, albeit not very good, as exactly that already. Isn't that a reasonable definition of a parliamentary democracy?

Tom

You surely don't need me to spell out after nearly 10,000 posts on this thread alone?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

No, far from it.
Brexit can be the best thing that happens to UK politics.
1. greater participation: large section of our voters fell asleep while relying on the EU to challenge our UK government
2. move toward a plural, consensual politics

ok. so now I'm confused. You're saying that you agree that the EU hasn't caused these problems and that leaving the EU won't solve them.

However the impact of Brexit will promote a greater interest into a more relevant style of politics.

I agree that these will be results, and beneficial, but these will be the results needed to solve the mess that Brexit has caused, on top of the pre-brexit mess that UK government decisiosn have caused... because Brexit won't solve those problems. Its highly likely it'll result in reduced spending on public services and housing.

So you're saying the benefit is that things will get bad, so people will have to sort them. That's a bit of a twisted way of trying to find a positive, but I applaud you for trying. I just hope know one you know suffers the negatives to get us where we need to be. When people have been proposing the solutions for years, without the need to blame the EU and immigrants for the problems.

 

[Woosh]

but these will be the results needed to solve the mess that Brexit has caused, .

The mess is so very short term.
We are at a point where parliament is back in control.
And the Pound is steady.
If you are looking for someone to blame, how about Mr Corbyn?

 

[Woosh]

When people have been proposing the solutions for years, without the need to blame the EU and immigrants for the problems.

Let's be brutally frank about the downside of freedom of movement. It is a Thatcherite economic model, it benefits the industrialists by passing the cost of factory closures to other local authorities while supplying cheaper labour to the least regulated industrial countries like the UK. Why didn't UK governments use the tools they have to curb immigration? this is because they want growth, which keeps them in power.
The EU will have to fix it, brexit will make them act sooner rather than later, that's a bonus.