Are you now saying that the reason you want the UK to secede from the EU is about unemployment?
If so, how will leaving help the employment prospects either here or elsewhere?
Tom
Brexit, for once some facts.
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If so, how will leaving help the employment prospects either here or elsewhere?
Tom
brexit is much more a rejection of Mrs Thatcher's common market view of the EU than a result of UKIP's narrow viewpoint.
Mrs Thatcher and the following UK governments continued to expand the single market, benefiting the 'elites' to the detriment of others. While other members, notably Germany, tried very hard to build defenses against the exaggeration of globalized manufacturing and services, corporate tax cheats, our UK governments see them as micro-management and 'red tape' playing into the hand of newspapers like the Express.
Really! Do you really believe that?
I believe that the population by and large do like the many benefits we have gained since 1973. The problem is they don't like the kind of UK we have under tory government and that's all we have had since 1979, (New Labour wasn't socialist), but the tory media wing has been brainwashing the population with anti-socialist propaganda for the last 4 decades.
The public has been led to believe socialism is evil and the pursuit of uncountable wealth is desirable. The people responsible for this brainwashing are all billionaires very closely linked with the tory Party and the aristocracy of this country. As the EU constitutes a democratic entity across the nations, then that has become the whipping boy for all the ills that beset this nation thanks to 38 years of unbroken capitalist government.
Try to remember exactly who it was caused the financial collapse of 2007-8. You might also try and reconcile the fact that it was public money which bailed out the banks which continued to pay fantasyland bonuses to the casino bankers who brought about the collapse and the subsequent austerity programme for the ordinary folk with no ability to cheat on their taxes as they are governed by PAYE rules. By that, I mean reconcile that with the tory government refusal to bail out any of our major industries when they were in difficulty.
It wasn't the EU which ordered the UK government to refuse to support the British car industry nor did the EU tell the French to offer financial support to Renault or the Italian government to help out Fiat. The governments of those countries made those decisions all by themselves without interference from the EU because they were concerned about their people and they are all sovereign nation states.
Germany, nowadays an undivided, sovereign nation state, has had to overcome enormous financial burdens since 1989 when the wall came down but they have achieved great success through their hard work and democratic socialist policies.
Both France and Italy still retain profitable motor industries and have a healthy export record. If you are old enough, you might remember the 1970s when Britain endured many strikes in our major industries, the car maker British Leyland being particularly hard hit by industrial action. The tory media slated the trade unions and supported the bosses every single time there was any action yet what they failed to mention, and it is checkable if you want to do the research, is that Renault lost more days to strike action every year than BL. I can't recall for certain but I think Fiat may have had more lost time to industrial action also.
Three decades later, we see the results of those government policies in the UK, France and Italy. Disregarding other reasons why countries may have economic difficulties, you can see that we in the UK haven't really got very much of anything that is British-owned to export and bring in essential foreign revenue.
It seems to me that our arrogant right-wing extremists are telling the public through their media that the UK is right, that we know better than all the rest; that the 27 other sovereign nation states are all wrong, corrupt and financially inept.
Anyone who actually believes that has been successfully brainwashed by the plutocracy that operates here under the guise of a democratic government.
Tom
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That is the obvious answer. The next question would be why have they formed that view and this will lead to the complicated scenarios....
The debate to be held could provide answers to that second question provided the opportunity is not squandered. If the leavers line is basically a "will of the people " rant, then they deserve to lose the argument and vote. If they can suggest viable alternatives, then they should be listened to.
I expect that the EU negotiating team will be listening with interest, and if the leave arguments presented are coherent respectful and logical, the subsequent negotiations will run smoother and more advantageous for the UK
I think brexit is less favourable but viable nevertheless. There is nothing to stop us picking and choosing the areas that we want to continue as before, security, foreign policy, CAP and the environment, medecine, university, research, space etc, we continue to pay in and share the same framework. There is no need for us to take part in the ECJ.
We will need a trade deal with the EU, starting with CETA as a model and a transitional period then relax some border control. Customs clearance is now fully computerized, there is no need for long queue at the ferries. Later, such deal can evolve into something nearer to a customs union.
At some point in the future, the benefit of new avenues will compensate for early losses.
The future depends much more on who governs us than which deal we have with the EU.
We will need a trade deal with the EU, starting with CETA as a model and a transitional period then relax some border control. Customs clearance is now fully computerized, there is no need for long queue at the ferries. Later, such deal can evolve into something nearer to a customs union.
At some point in the future, the benefit of new avenues will compensate for early losses.
The future depends much more on who governs us than which deal we have with the EU.
Why? on the strength of a popularity contest, where lies and promises which have since been proved false encouraged people to vote against remaining in the EU?
When a large portion of those voting not only had no idea of what was involved, but still don't, and in fact no one has actually been able to give any guarantee that this will be beneficial.
Would you buy a car say that came with no guarantee it was fit for purpose, yet say you are willing to gamble the future of your children on nothing more that the words of a pack of proven liars?
That is irresponsible in the extreme
You are "Deep Thought" and it took you 7.5 Million years to calculate that
And I claim my £5.
Financially ; survivable if that is all you want.
Socially; Catastrophic for this and the next generation.
That last line does indeed provide the "Devil in the Detail"
We are surrendering into the arms of our worst enemy, the Torys
Because they are the ones demanding change, surely that is obvious?
There is no reason to need to demand nothing changes, that should be logical enough.
How to damage the negotiating position of the UK with the EU
"
EU looks on bewildered as South Africa vows to agree trade deal with Britain BEFORE Brexit
BRUSSELS looked on bewildered and seemingly powerless today as South Africa vowed to begin negotiating a trade deal with Britain immediately so that it will be ready to go the day after the country officially leaves the bloc."
He made the remarks following a meeting with Liam Fox, who revealed the pair had discussed how to “progress” Britain’s future economic relationship with one of Africa’s largest economies.
The issue over whether the UK can agree the terms of future trade deals whilst settling its divorce from the bloc is becoming an increasingly potent headache for Brussels.
"
The Damage isn't from Liam Fox making these overtures, but from the Express making out that something illegal is being done behind the backs of our EU partners to stir up the Brexit voters
The South African minister in the video didn't say that the Trade Deal would go ahead the day after we leave.
He said Negotiations on a Trade Deal would begin that Day
Propaganda and lies yet again from the Express
"
EU looks on bewildered as South Africa vows to agree trade deal with Britain BEFORE Brexit
BRUSSELS looked on bewildered and seemingly powerless today as South Africa vowed to begin negotiating a trade deal with Britain immediately so that it will be ready to go the day after the country officially leaves the bloc."
He made the remarks following a meeting with Liam Fox, who revealed the pair had discussed how to “progress” Britain’s future economic relationship with one of Africa’s largest economies.
The issue over whether the UK can agree the terms of future trade deals whilst settling its divorce from the bloc is becoming an increasingly potent headache for Brussels.
"
The Damage isn't from Liam Fox making these overtures, but from the Express making out that something illegal is being done behind the backs of our EU partners to stir up the Brexit voters
The South African minister in the video didn't say that the Trade Deal would go ahead the day after we leave.
He said Negotiations on a Trade Deal would begin that Day
Propaganda and lies yet again from the Express
Benefits of Brexit #1
"
Theresa May refused to guarantee she will not water down food standards or open up the NHS to US firms in a trade deal with Donald Trump.
The Prime Minister faced repeated questions about how much she is prepared to give away, ahead of her face-to-face talks with the President later this week.
Jeremy Corbyn urged her to rule out any deal that would give US healthcare giants a toehold in the NHS – after similar concerns over an aborted EU-US agreement
Clegg says US will demand trade deal includes chlorine-soaked chickens
And the SNP raised fears that such a deal will open the door to British supermarkets being stocked with meat produced in unhygienic ways currently outlawed across the EU.
The price of freer transatlantic trade will include the sale of chickens washed with chemicals – a practice in the US – critics say."
"
Theresa May refused to guarantee she will not water down food standards or open up the NHS to US firms in a trade deal with Donald Trump.
The Prime Minister faced repeated questions about how much she is prepared to give away, ahead of her face-to-face talks with the President later this week.
Jeremy Corbyn urged her to rule out any deal that would give US healthcare giants a toehold in the NHS – after similar concerns over an aborted EU-US agreement
Clegg says US will demand trade deal includes chlorine-soaked chickens
And the SNP raised fears that such a deal will open the door to British supermarkets being stocked with meat produced in unhygienic ways currently outlawed across the EU.
The price of freer transatlantic trade will include the sale of chickens washed with chemicals – a practice in the US – critics say."
After my appeal in post #9949 for any of the 'Brexit' camp to provide me with some genuine, evidence-based reasons which might persuade me to alter my opinion on the UK membership of the EU, there remains a complete absence of such reasons.
Perhaps I should reserve further comment for a couple of years to give then a fuller opportunity to demonstrate how 'Brexit' will be better for the people of the UK but I had hoped for a more cogent response than:
......or this from 'Woosh':
It is especially worrying in the light of this report:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-38760792
...and, closer to home, right now:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38762243
In the first of those, there is a glimpse of an increased likelihood of WW3 due to the rise of the extreme right-wing. In the second, we get to see yet again the dishonesty of British tory politicians in regard to education in this particular instance.
The shambles that is 'Brexit' has made the UK a laughing-stock around the world except in those countries with power in the hands of right-wing extremists. Views such as those expressed by the 'Brexit' proponents in this thread only serve to support that appraisal.
Tom
Perhaps I should reserve further comment for a couple of years to give then a fuller opportunity to demonstrate how 'Brexit' will be better for the people of the UK but I had hoped for a more cogent response than:
from 'gray198'......
......or this from 'Woosh':
I find it quite incredible that mature adults cannot do better than responses such as those to the question in post #9949. This, after all, is about the future for not only our country but that of other parts of the world too.
It is especially worrying in the light of this report:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-38760792
...and, closer to home, right now:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38762243
In the first of those, there is a glimpse of an increased likelihood of WW3 due to the rise of the extreme right-wing. In the second, we get to see yet again the dishonesty of British tory politicians in regard to education in this particular instance.
The shambles that is 'Brexit' has made the UK a laughing-stock around the world except in those countries with power in the hands of right-wing extremists. Views such as those expressed by the 'Brexit' proponents in this thread only serve to support that appraisal.
Tom
oldtom,
brexit is not Mr Trump's politics. The idea that brexit will move the world nearer to global disaster is not even intuitive to say the least.
I am not trying to convert you because I believe in the benefits of staying in the EU myself, I only want you to stop labeling half of the UK 'brexitidiots'.
brexit is not Mr Trump's politics. The idea that brexit will move the world nearer to global disaster is not even intuitive to say the least.
I am not trying to convert you because I believe in the benefits of staying in the EU myself, I only want you to stop labeling half of the UK 'brexitidiots'.
This doesn't make any sense.... there are always winners and losers in any vote / election. Are you seriously suggesting that UKIP just as an example have for the past 10 years not being democratic. Nigel Farage for instance has lost every time he's stood to be elected as an MP, did he give up when he lost ... no.
Politics moves in circles and if you're in the right place at the right time, you can win.
There are lots of things we should have votes on, but I agree the logic and reasoning behind offering the referendum vote was flawed, and clearly it was offered to serve party politics not problems with the country. Leave never expected or clearly wanted to win, and now we have this mess. I'm sure we'll all learn from it.
Let them come up with some logical reasons for their beliefs then - jumping off cliffs doesn't count.
'Brexit' = idiocy, whether on an economic, political or strategic dimension. In my view those who support jumping off cliffs are idiots. They just don't like being told the truth in the same way as all the racists can't accept being called racist - they are all in denial!
Tom
The death of Tam Dalyell has been announced. He was always worth listening to as someone with a broad knowledge of politics and world affairs. RIP
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29367988
Tom
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29367988
Tom
You could also ask remainers similarly difficult questions, like why have successive governments pushed so many poorer people into personal debts, why they have not solved youth unemployment and why they sold council houses.
What is fascinating about this whole Brexit scenario is how the right wing media have succeeded in indoctrinating a feeling of persecution in the voters who chose leave, and a need to belittle those who voted to remain.
Both of these reactions have been exaggerated to astonishing proportions to the point that all facts offered by either side have an uphill struggle against an ingrained resistance of the part of the person it is aimed at.
It is true that some on the remain side have and do label the Brexit voters with all the names they can bring to mind, but frankly if you actually keep score, how many newspaper and media contributions have been made that attack each side in equal measure?
And the notion of there being a campaign of "intellectual stigma, by self style superior beings" is a media construct.
Where these comments appear they are being presented by individuals, not backed by mass media and the newspapers, whereas all the "Remoaner" "Evil EU" propaganda most certainly is a campaign designed to direct Public opinion where they want it to go.
On the one hand individual voices of discontent for Remain
on the other Mass media moguls aiming to make the public behave in the manner that they can profit from and support Leave.
And this against the background that there are no Facts or Guarantees of anything positive resulting from Brexit. it is all based on lies false promises and Blind hope.
Both of these reactions have been exaggerated to astonishing proportions to the point that all facts offered by either side have an uphill struggle against an ingrained resistance of the part of the person it is aimed at.
It is true that some on the remain side have and do label the Brexit voters with all the names they can bring to mind, but frankly if you actually keep score, how many newspaper and media contributions have been made that attack each side in equal measure?
And the notion of there being a campaign of "intellectual stigma, by self style superior beings" is a media construct.
Where these comments appear they are being presented by individuals, not backed by mass media and the newspapers, whereas all the "Remoaner" "Evil EU" propaganda most certainly is a campaign designed to direct Public opinion where they want it to go.
On the one hand individual voices of discontent for Remain
on the other Mass media moguls aiming to make the public behave in the manner that they can profit from and support Leave.
And this against the background that there are no Facts or Guarantees of anything positive resulting from Brexit. it is all based on lies false promises and Blind hope.
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