Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

That process is completely different to trying to change opinion of others through insult,putdowns and claims if superior knowledge.

That's how democracy has always operated!

If you don't believe me, have a look in at any Prime Ministers Question Time! Even the original Greek democracy was no different 4000 years ago.

Really Zlatan, you live in a sort of dream world where everything should operate according to your impractical ideal model. The world just isn't like that.

Insults are the stock in trade of politics, parliament has even refined that into our constitution and practice with frameworks. For example, a member cannot insult a minister directly, he has to address an indirect insult to the Right Honourable whoever. Members cannot use names when abusing, they have to say the member for wherever they were elected. And there is even an approved indirect way of calling someone a liar in the house.

But despite these disguises, the recipients are still being insulted, and they know it.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

This could be the death of the Labour Party....Corbyn has imposed a 3-line whip forcing Labour to vote for the Article 50 bill,I suppose he has done that because Labour has more Leave voters than Remain voters.
But there are estimate 60 Labour MP's who will vote against the Bill,Corbyn cant sack them all and some are threatening to resign if he forces them.
I wonder how many will take the compromise option of voting for any amendment that undermines the possibilty of a hard Brexit.
5 days to make up their minds.
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

I think we should leave but I,m not insulting , claiming superior understanding or mocking remainers. That process is nothing to do with the one you describe.

Not insulting? you really do have a serious memory problem and you couldn't possibly have made this post, could you?

Tom's insane ramblings have taken this thread to a new low..what planet is he living on..
Flecc and Kudos...are you really aligning yourselves with that bullsh!t ??? Its plain obsessed madness. Unbelievable.

But few will disagree with him because he,s a remainer ??? Stick like proverbial.."

Come off it, you are not what you pretend to be are you?

 

[anotherkiwi]

But OG I don't believe your reasons for staying are any more justified than mine are for leaving. Staying presents just as many economic problems, more social ones.
Why should onus be on leaversrs to prove anything when you cant prove anything about staying .
Besides , we now have MPs to decide.

Can't prove anything about staying? Is that the North Pole of Mars you are writing from? Trading without barriers, jobs not at risk of leaving for the continent, whole industries staying in the UK. Of course there is proof.

If the UK participated in the EU instead of trying to destroy it the social problems would be greatly diminished. Your government is responsible for your being "overrun" by EU migration, they had the opportunity to stem the flood but didn't do a thing and now it is the EU's fault of course.

Hey you live in alternative reality so you know what? Everything that is wrong in the UK it is the EU's fault. Now that is clear we'll be making the Toyotas, and Nissans and Airbus wings and welcoming with open arms financial services, thanks very much! And good luck with working with Trump, he is still mad about winning the popular vote and no one noticing...

 

[Zlatan]

That's how democracy has always operated!

If you don't believe me, have a look in at any Prime Ministers Question Time! Even the original Greek democracy was no different 4000 years ago.

Really Zlatan, you live in a sort of dream world where everything should operate according to your impractical ideal model. The world just isn't like that.

Insults are the stock in trade of politics, parliament has even refined that into our constitution and practice with frameworks. For example, a member cannot insult a minister directly, he has to address an indirect insult to the Right Honourable whoever. Members cannot use names when abusing, they have to say the member for wherever they were elected. And there is even an approved indirect way of calling someone a liar in the house.

But despite these disguises, the recipients are still being insulted, and they know it.
.

Fair point flecc, I,m such a sensitive type...

It worries me that country is more divided than I can ever remember. Is it a big step from division to alienation, from protest to revolt, from insult to attack. Its not a big step flecc, we should be careful.

 

[Zlatan]

Can't prove anything about staying? Is that the North Pole of Mars you are writing from? Trading without barriers, jobs not at risk of leaving for the continent, whole industries staying in the UK. Of course there is proof.

If the UK participated in the EU instead of trying to destroy it the social problems would be greatly diminished. Your government is responsible for your being "overrun" by EU migration, they had the opportunity to stem the flood but didn't do a thing and now it is the EU's fault of course.

Hey you live in alternative reality so you know what? Everything that is wrong in the UK it is the EU's fault. Now that is clear we'll be making the Toyotas, and Nissans and Airbus wings and welcoming with open arms financial services, thanks very much! And good luck with working with Trump, he is still mad about winning the popular vote and no one noticing...

Repeating your arguments makes them no more valid Kiwi .
I,ve listed by economic reasons pages ago , you choose to simply dismiss them.
Lets just hope the MPs are somewhat more balanced than you and I..but that's not difficult.

 

[Zlatan]

Not insulting? you really do have a serious memory problem and you couldn't possibly have made this post, could you?

Tom's insane ramblings have taken this thread to a new low..what planet is he living on..
Flecc and Kudos...are you really aligning yourselves with that bullsh!t ??? Its plain obsessed madness. Unbelievable.

But few will disagree with him because he,s a remainer ??? Stick like proverbial.."

Come off it, you are not what you pretend to be are you?

So saying it as it is about Tom means I insulted him ???
He cant post without insulting somebody. He,s insulted you but you missed it ,or chose to ignore it . Just read his posts OG.
Then read mine. His posts should have been deleted on numerous occasions. The bloke and his bile have damaged the entire stance of remain on here.
There has been reasoned debate on here but none involving Tom.
He actually represents the big mistake remain made. They chose to attack, rather than reason. Lecture rather than explain and reason. Many remainers have polarised situation. Yourself included OG.
Compare your comments with Kudos or KTM or Danidl. Flecc or Woosh.

Tom even had a go at Woosh...after way he has defended , explained his stance that was unbelievable.

And I would have criticised Tom even had he been a leaver. The way he responds to people (IMO) is totally unnecessary and out of order, yet you choose to defend him.

 

[tillson]

This is your chance tillson, just what do you expect to get out of Brexit?

I expect that the UK to retain access to the EU Single market. I think we will see an end to the free movement of people. I expect that EU employment law will be adopted by the UK. The Human Rights Act will be scrapped and replaced by something more suitable for 2017. I expect that the UK will continue to make some form of financial contribution to the EU, but stay firmly outside the Euro. I think the UK will ultimately have greater freedoms to enter into trade arrangements with countries outside the EU. There are other aspects, but I think all of this is achievable.

It would not surprise me to see these easements applied to other EU nations at some point in the future.

Something has to change and something will change within the EU. BREXIT will have been the catalyst for the changes to come.

 

[oldgroaner]

I expect that the UK to retain access to the EU Single market. I think we will see an end to the free movement of people. I expect that EU employment law adopted by the UK. The Human Rights Act will be scrapped and replaced by something more suitable for 2017. I expect that the UK will continue to make some form financial contribution to the EU, but stay firmly outside the Euro. I think the UK will ultimately have a greater freedoms to enter into trade arrangements with countries outside the EU. There are other aspects, but I think all of this is achievable.

I think you should be the one to go to the negotiations my friend! come back will all that and you will still not satisfy the right wing press or locals,and the fact that you have alienated the greater mass of the Brexit Voters who want "The Full Monty"

Plus you have to overcome the fact that there are so many bits you missed like having to comply with all new EU laws goods related standards that come out in future years, with no say over what they contain, and comply with all those rules and regulations that allegedly "reduce our sovereignty"

And can you imagine the Tory Government accepting EU employment law when they want to remove the Human Rights act and reduce the workers rights and privileges with a new repressive version?

And Trade Deals? do you prefer being bought and sold by the USA and or China? that is exactly what will happen.

Oh sure, things will turn out fine and dandy, all pigs fuelled up and ready to fly.

 

[gray198]

So you're now attempting to argue with the definition of democracy?

Democracy, means we all have a voice and a right to express that voice, suggesting there is a better way, is a vital part of that voice.

Falling in line, is not democracy.

it seems to me from this general debate in here and in the country and also in America that democracy is only when you get the result you want, in line with the opinions being spouted by people who think they are morally and intellectually superior. Any decision that goes against this general path that has been predestined for us is anti democratic and the people who voted for it are all racists, xenophobes idiots etc and must be put in their place by these superior beings. I wonder why we were ever offered a vote in the first place

 

[flecc]

It worries me that country is more divided than I can ever remember. Is it a big step from division to alienation, from protest to revolt, from insult to attack. Its not a big step flecc, we should be careful.

Yes, it is worrying and there have already been some isolated attacks and one murder. It's a major reason why I'm so annoyed at David Cameron calling the referendum, since it was entirely predictable how divisive it would be.

What's done is done, but I and millions of others won't stop trying to reverse the decision with minimal delay.
.

 

[tillson]

I think you should be the one to go to the negotiations my friend! come back will all that and you will still not satisfy the right wing press or locals,and the fact that you have alienated the greater mass of the Brexit Voters who want "The Full Monty"

Plus you have to overcome the fact that there are so many bits you missed like having to comply with all new EU laws goods related standards that come out in future years, with no say over what they contain, and comply with all those rules and regulations that allegedly "reduce our sovereignty"

And can you imagine the Tory Government accepting EU employment law when they want to remove the Human Rights act and reduce the workers rights and privileges with a new repressive version?

Oh sure, all pigs fuelled up and ready to fly.

You see, you resort to child like stupidity and defeatism.

 

[flecc]

it seems to me from this general debate in here and in the country and also in America that democracy is only when you get the result you want, in line with the opinions being spouted by people who think they are morally and intellectually superior. Any decision that goes against this general path that has been predestined for us is anti democratic and the people who voted for it are all racists, xenophobes idiots etc and must be put in their place by these superior beings. I wonder why we were ever offered a vote in the first place

That's a very reasonable definition of democracy as it operates, how it's always operated for 4000 years.

I'm only puzzled as to why you think this strongly voiced opposition is unusual in this instance.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Yes, it is worrying and there have already been some isolated attacks and one murder. It's a major reason why I'm so annoyed at David Cameron calling the referendum, since it was entirely predictable how divisive it would be.

What's done is done, but I and millions of others won't stop trying to reverse the decision with minimal delay.
.

That's quite an ironic stance flecc.
"This division was caused by Cameron, so irrespective of MPs decision I,m going to continue it."
That's no longer on Camerons hands, its on those that choose to pursue their dream of a United States Of Europe ??

 

[oldgroaner]

it seems to me from this general debate in here and in the country and also in America that democracy is only when you get the result you want, in line with the opinions being spouted by people who think they are morally and intellectually superior. Any decision that goes against this general path that has been predestined for us is anti democratic and the people who voted for it are all racists, xenophobes idiots etc and must be put in their place by these superior beings. I wonder why we were ever offered a vote in the first place

Same old urban legend; why do you repeat it again? is it hard for you to understand that you repeating propaganda doesn't impress others?

look at the media and tell me which side is making all the going with propaganda, and do try to make an original argument not trot out the same old victim complex rubbish.

Why are you feeling people treat you as morally inferior?
If your statements as silly as the second hand ones you just made is treated with scorn, are you surprised?

You should be and it has nothing to do with anyone regarding you in the fashion you imagine they are doing, it's simply that you are repeating second hand nonsense.

How about using some of your own words and thoughts, not repeating slogans from someone else?

I posted up the bill introducing the Referendum, presumably you read it?
It was intended as an opinion poll, and it says so in Black and White.
The margin of support was marginal too, and every day the prospects of this being a success grows less and less, and we don't even know if we can get a deal that will not make matters even worse.

For goodness sake start thinking about the implications of what is happening and drop this dogma borrowed from somewhere else.

 

[oldgroaner]

That's quite an ironic stance flecc.
"This division was caused by Cameron, so irrespective of MPs decision I,m going to continue it."
That's no longer on Camerons hands, its on those that choose to pursue their dream of a United States Of Europe ??

How do you work that out as logical? people like you are the ones who wanted to change things, the onus is on you, not us.

 

[Zlatan]

OG
You are the king of dOGma..

And no I don't want to change country into a Eastern Island of Europe. You do.
The country is fine as UK, Britain or whatever term you wish. I,m happy with our sovereignty and Governance. You want Brussels in charge , not me.
We,ve voted to remain as UK..let the MP,s now decide ..I,m happy with whatever they decide. You plainly are not.

I,m not whinging at all. I,m happy to let MPs now decide. They have our result, they know pros and cons. Just let them get on with it.
What's the problem ? They might decide to leave against your wishes ? But they know best OG, remainers have been telling us for weeks.
You could always emigrate OG, bbut I,d advise against Spain, Portugal,Italy or Greece. They are corrupt and economies are fecked. You could try Luxembourg but you,ll need £500k for a flat. Get the point OG...EU is NOT a panecea.

And your response to Gray was entirely predictable. Patronising to point of insult.

 

[flecc]

That's quite an ironic stance flecc.
This division was caused by Cameron, so irrespective of MPs decision I,m going to continue it.
That's no longer on Camerons hands, its on those that choose to pursue their dream of a United States Of Europe ??

As I explained earlier, that's how democracy operates, it operates with opposition and I am one of that opposition. I repeat, democracy without opposition is not democracy, it's dictatorship.

As for the United States of Europe, that's hardly the current issue. I am much more concerned with the evil of scrapping the excellent Human Rights Act in favour of a bill to remove our protection from state sponsored abuse. And leaving the two European Courts which have never done anything other than good for our citizens. It's the myriad of such issues that's my major concern at present.
.

 

[tillson]

I think you should be the one to go to the negotiations my friend! come back will all that and you will still not satisfy the right wing press or locals,and the fact that you have alienated the greater mass of the Brexit Voters who want "The Full Monty"

Plus you have to overcome the fact that there are so many bits you missed like having to comply with all new EU laws goods related standards that come out in future years, with no say over what they contain, and comply with all those rules and regulations that allegedly "reduce our sovereignty"

And can you imagine the Tory Government accepting EU employment law when they want to remove the Human Rights act and reduce the workers rights and privileges with a new repressive version?

And Trade Deals? do you prefer being bought and sold by the USA and or China? that is exactly what will happen.

Oh sure, things will turn out fine and dandy, all pigs fuelled up and ready to fly.

The Tory government have already indicated that they will incorporate EU employment law into UK employment law.

As for satisfying "the greater mass of BREXIT voters" how do you know what will and what will not satisfy them? You are jumping to conclusions and stereotyping. Maybe some common ground can be sought?

The process is known as negotiate and compromise and consists of sacrificing some demands in exchange for concessions on others. Flexibility and an ability to empathise with another's point of view is an essential asset in these situations. These qualities come in a wrapper which is known as being a grown up. Children have no concept of this, so they resort to behaviour such as, "bring it on, I can't wait to see you fail", or "pigs might fly", or even a fixation on all the negatives of the opposing view. What I describe is a mechanism which is no different to a child holding its breath in temper, or writhing around on a supermarket floor and screaming in anger whist an embarrassed parent looks on.

This is no way to get your point across. You need to find a cause which is anti-BREXIT, an opposition, and get behind it. This is what BREXIT did. BREXITers got behind UKIP and put in motion a mechanism to alter our relationship with the EU. It has worked.

 

[oldgroaner]

OG
You are the king of dOGma..

And no I don't want to change country into a Eastern Island of Europe. You do.
The country is fine as UK, Britain or whatever term you wish. I,m happy with our sovereignty and Governance. You want Brussels in charge , not me.
We,ve voted to remain as UK..let the MP,s now decide ..I,m happy with whatever they decide. You plainly are not.

I,m not whinging at all. I,m happy to let MPs now decide. They have our result, they know pros and cons. Just let them get on with it.
What's the problem ? They might decide to leave against your wishes ? But they know best OG, remainers have been telling us for weeks.
You could always emigrate OG, bbut I,d advise against Spain, Portugal,Italy or Greece. They are corrupt and economies are fecked. You could try Luxembourg but you,ll need £500k for a flat. Get the point OG...EU is NOT a panecea.

And your response to Gray was entirely predictable. Patronising to point of insult.

Another rant,and yet another pointless attack, but then that's all you can do isn't it?
What happened to you not being the one making silly attacks, another memory loss attack within minutes?
Still waiting for a sensible post from you but hope is fading fast.
There was nothing patronising in my response to Gray, but then you would see one even if I only said Hello, wouldn't you?
Remember this, he was the one who opened up with an attack, i simply asked him to not merely rehash old dogma but use his own words not those borrowed verbatim from the media.