Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

The problem with that is we will be in a perpetual state of conflict and disagreement. This itself can be more damaging than the original decision.

That's fundamental to democracy, often described as the least bad system of governance.

Sometimes we have to concede to a final arbiter even though we may profoundly disagree.

Once again, no. In democracy we never have to concede with something we disagree with. We are always free to fight for reversal of decisions.

The notion that we should all pull together is the stuff of fantasy. Especially true when in this context half the country will find it impossible to cooperate with things they so sincerely believe to be wrong.

 

[oldtom]

Why is it only now that these haulers have copped on?

I can't answer that but perhaps the bean counters have been asked by the boards of some big companies involved in UK/EU import/export business to evaluate the prospects in a post-'Brexit' landscape? I'm sure that to date, many have simply ridden along on the crest of a wave of perceived optimism driven by relentless rhetoric from far-right politicians and their propaganda agents.

The longer this shambles rumbles on, the clearer it becomes that the architects of the referendum and of the whole 'Brexit' premise had no plan or vision for the UK following secession from the EU. They really didn't do their homework.

People talk about merits and demerits but in all honesty, I cannot remember anyone offering a single merit at any point since last June. Lots of hot air and airy-fairy notions about greater freedom don't count, particularly when every pre-referendum promise has since been broken, denied or said to have been misinterpreted, etc, etc.

There are many, many questions that need to be answered; many future costs which need to be quantified before any dispassionate evaluation of the prospects for a post-'Brexit' UK can be measured.

Vox Political has dreamt up a bunch of questions, all pertinent when one considers the potential enormity of a decision whether to stay or whether to go.

http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2017/01/26/brexit-questions-that-the-government-could-and-should-answer-tax-research-uk/

Tom

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I can't answer

Here's my stab as to why it is.

Its all about public perception. About the image problem of "ignoring the will of the people". They kept quiet when it could effect them negatively, every individual or business will reach a tipping point where keeping quiet is worse than speaking out. This point is different for everyone.

There has to be a gradual wave of people expressing concern, and this wave is building as more people feel comfortable to express the opinion without it having a negative impact on their business or their image.

As more express this, more will feel comfortable standing up to it too.

 

[tillson]

Shame that the proponents of Brexit spent 44 years dong exactly the opposite of what you recommend we should do.

They undertook a campaign of continually lying, cheating, bullying and cajoling , using the press for anti EU propaganda, and aiming press anger away from themselves ,and we ended up here, don't you think?

Have you lost your senses to recommend we now weekly submit to this utter confidence trick worked on us?

That is an utterly stupid thing to expect, come back when and if you are serious.

It is entirely your responsibility to make Brexit work and ours to make sure you do that.
Put your money where your mouth is, you broke it, you fix it.
Do you wonder why I laugh at your preposterous nonsense?

Well we have a choice.

The correct way to approach this is to support the political party which best represents our desired outcome. I want out of the EU, so I support UKIP and they brought sufficient pressure to force the referendum. If someone has an opposing view, the correct thing to do is vote for someone who supports supports that opinion.

What it is not acceptable to do is display behaviour which is usually associated with a big stupid baby. Because you didn't get what you want out of the referendum, you and other remainers are being disruptive, obstructive and destructive. Or in other words, being big stupid babies.

I have said that I will make the best of it if we don't leave the EU. Thus is adult behaviour. You should try it.

 

[Zlatan]

Remainers demanded this decision was put to parliament.
What was point of that demand if after it you are saying you will simply carry on in same vein, it makes the demand pointless. Ofcourse we all have right to peaceful protest , what we do not have a right to do is continually degrade and insult those with opposing views, which if remainers were honest,has been the salient policy of their campaign.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Remainers demanded this decision was put to parliament.
What was point if that demand if after it you are saying you will simply carry on in same vain, it makes the demand pointless. Ofcourse we all have right to peaceful protest , what we do not have a right to do is continually degrade and insult those with opposing views, which if remainers were honest,has been the salient policy of their campain.

No, see you're wrong again. The decision was put to the courts by a group of claimants, some of whom were leavers. The court case wasn't about remain or leave. Have a look at the list of claimants.

Here's another of the names, that you won't here because he was a "leaver"

Dos Santos, 37, works at a salon in Belgravia, central London. He has kept a lower profile than Miller and has been targeted with online abuse. After winning the high court case, he told The Guardian: “I have never challenged the result of the referendum – in fact I voted for Brexit in the referendum for the sole reason that I wanted power to be returned from Europe to the British parliament.


“But I did not think it was right for government then just to bypass parliament and try to take away my legal rights without consulting parliament first ... In her speech to the Conservative party conference, the prime minister attacked me for bringing these proceedings as a claimant. She said I was trying to subvert democracy. That was an unwarranted and irresponsible attack.”

 

[oldgroaner]

What it is not acceptable to do is display behaviour which is usually associated with a big stupid baby. Because you didn't get what you want out of the referendum,you and other remainers are being disruptive, obstructive and destructive. Or in other w ords, being big stupid babies.

I have said that I will make the best of it if we don't leave the EU. Thus is adult behaviour. You should try i

After you old chap, and do try not to act like a petulant child, it really should be beneath you, yet for some reason it isn't.

You have failed all along to make any reasoned argument in favour of this course of action you are bent on, in fact you haven't even managed at any point to indicate why you made that choice, or what good you believe it will do.

This is your chance tillson, just what do you expect to get out of Brexit? for once no evasion or juvenile responses like your last post if you don't mind.
Also I would ask what do you mean by this codswallop?

"you and other remainers are being disruptive, obstructive and destructive. Or in other words, being big stupid babies."
Disruptive.... where and to what?
Obstructive....did I not say let's get on with it?
Destructive.....Name something we have destroyed, unless you mean your fantasies.
Being big stupid babies? and what pray does that mean?

I realise you aren't happy that you simply cannot come forward with a cogent argument in favour of leaving the EU, I can sympathise with you on that as there simply isn't one.
Why not do the sensible thing and admit it, instead of making childish statements that mean nothing except to show you are frustrated?

I can accept that you have a point of view, though you can't support it with a reasoned argument, and I haven't resorted to name calling as you just did.
Why? because I'm not the one acting and ranting in a juvenile fashion.

 

[oldgroaner]

what we do not have a right to do is continually degrade and insult those with opposing views, which if remainers were honest,has been the salient policy of their campain.

Out comes to old "Urban myth " of persecution yet again
Clearly you are a resident of the moon and have no access to the Daily Papers Express Telegraph and Daily Mail which rely on vilifying anyone, including high court judges that they deem hostile to Brexit

It seems you subscribe to the theory that if you always repeat the lies you have been sold, people will believe them, not only that, but you fall for them yourself, even though the evidence that the opposite of what you say is true is clearly displayed in the papers I mentioned.

There is no need to degrade and insult, all we have asked for on here is for you to present a cogent argument in favour of Brexit, and these spurious accusations you make are simply smoke screening to cover up your inability to prove your case.

 

[flecc]

what we do not have a right to do is continually degrade and insult those with opposing views, which if remainers were honest,has been the salient policy of their campain.

No, No, No, we absolutely have that right, and it's a duty. That is why every democratic ruling government has an elected opposition, to fight and continue the fight to correct what they see as wrong.

Any parliament without an opposition is a dictatorship.

I think you and indeed Tillson are getting confused about how democracy works, as shown below:

1) The winning body makes the rules.

2) All of us must obey those rules.

3) But we do not have to agree with them, and in a democracy we are entitled, indeed have a communal duty, to oppose the continuance of those rules if we don't agree with them. We can do that democratically by any accepted peaceful means.
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

another fact from today

EU applications to UK universities suddenly down by 7%...
... after they had been growing for years.


University leaders are citing Brexit as a cause

 

[Danidl]

another fact from today

EU applications to UK universities suddenly down by 7%...
... after they had been growing for years.


University leaders are citing Brexit as a cause

My local town has been the beneficiary of 100 jobs in the pharma industry by an NI company seeking to retain a foothold in the EU, as announced today.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

My local town has been the beneficiary of 100 jobs in the pharma industry by an NI company seeking to retain a foothold in the EU, as announced today.

have you got a link to this news please. Thanks

 

[Zlatan]

No, see you're wrong again. The decision was put to the courts by a group of claimants, some of whom were leavers. The court case wasn't about remain or leave. Have a look at the list of claimants.

Here's another of the names, that you won't here because he was a "leaver"

Dos Santos, 37, works at a salon in Belgravia, central London. He has kept a lower profile than Miller and has been targeted with online abuse. After winning the high court case, he told The Guardian: “I have never challenged the result of the referendum – in fact I voted for Brexit in the referendum for the sole reason that I wanted power to be returned from Europe to the British parliament.


“But I did not think it was right for government then just to bypass parliament and try to take away my legal rights without consulting parliament first ... In her speech to the Conservative party conference, the prime minister attacked me for bringing these proceedings as a claimant. She said I was trying to subvert democracy. That was an unwarranted and irresponsible attack.”

So they hid behind democratic process but wish to carry on protesting when that same process goes against them.
And I don't care what justifications they claim, it was done to prevent leaving. Think you are being rather naive thinking otherwise , besides it proves my point when most remainers insist protests will continue if process goes against them.

 

[flecc]

And I don't care what justifications they claim, it was done to prevent leaving. Think you are being rather naive thinking otherwise , besides it proves my point when most remainers insist protests will continue if process goes against them.

But these are a legitimate part of democracy, not accepting the opposing view and hoping to eventually reverse it.

Without opposition there is no democracy, just permissive dictatorship.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

One of my earliest posts on this thread related to this. I live close to the NI Irish republic border and endured the bother of these lorries trapped for hours as the paperwork was being processed. Tailbacks of 5 miles were commonplace. Why is it only now that these haulers have copped on? Were they not discussing this with their public representative s for months?
These are the topics which should appear in a comprehensive white paper.

Can you imagine if we have tariff settlements and checks at Dover and Calais,the tailbacks of lorries could block our entire motorway system,it will be hell for the people of Kent.
KudosDave

 

[Zlatan]

No, No, No, we absolutely have that right, and it's a duty. That is why every democratic ruling government has an elected opposition, to fight and continue the fight to correct what they see as wrong.

Any parliament without an opposition is a dictatorship.

I think you and indeed Tillson are getting confused about how democracy works, as shown below:

1) The winning body makes the rules.

2) All of us must obey those rules.

3) But we do not have to agree with them, and in a democracy we are entitled, indeed have a communal duty, to oppose the continuance of those rules if we don't agree with them. We can do that democratically by any accepted peaceful means.
.

That is completely different to what's happening. Just read posts on here, in Facebook etc etc.
If you don't like what's happening you can put pressure in right places to get representation of your opinions. If there are enough supporters those representing these opinions will be voted into government.
That process is completely different to trying to change opinion of others through insult,putdowns and claims if superior knowledge.
I think we should leave but I,m not insulting , claiming superior understanding or mocking remainers. That process is nothing to do with the one you describe.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Sorry I don't agree. Democracy needs us all to accept majority decision and work towards a now common goal. One of reasons Italy has proved so weak is its continual change of government and policy ( probably exasperated by proportional representation) . Once decision is made either way the most productive outcome would be gained by us all supporting whichever decision is made. Are are we destined to be in and out eu every few years ad infinitum under your policy ?
Besides, once out I doubt we could ever rejoin.
The fact is country voted out, that decision will now be debated in parliament, voted on by those put in place to decide( a remainers point of view 3 weeks ago) and MPs will then decide direction country us going. I simply can't see your problem now. I believe you are preempting decision and already planning your next strategy. I,m saying let MPs do their job. Take us out or leave us in. I,ll accept it either way.

Its just we know that parliament does not have a free vote on such an important matter,May is obviously commited to hard Brexit,Corbyn doesnt know and SNP/Liberals want soft or no Brexit.
KudosDave

 

[Zlatan]

Out comes to old "Urban myth " of persecution yet again
Clearly you are a resident of the moon and have no access to the Daily Papers Express Telegraph and Daily Mail which rely on vilifying anyone, including high court judges that they deem hostile to Brexit

It seems you subscribe to the theory that if you always repeat the lies you have been sold, people will believe them, not only that, but you fall for them yourself, even though the evidence that the opposite of what you say is true is clearly displayed in the papers I mentioned.

There is no need to degrade and insult, all we have asked for on here is for you to present a cogent argument in favour of Brexit, and these spurious accusations you make are simply smoke screening to cover up your inability to prove your case.

But OG I don't believe your reasons for staying are any more justified than mine are for leaving. Staying presents just as many economic problems, more social ones.
Why should onus be on leaversrs to prove anything when you cant prove anything about staying .
Besides , we now have MPs to decide.

 

[Danidl]

have you got a link to this news please. Thanks

This link will get you there or at least close.....
www.rte.ie/news/2017/0126

 

[Zlatan]

Its just we know that parliament does not have a free vote on such an important matter,May is obviously commited to hard Brexit,Corbyn doesnt know and SNP/Liberals want soft or no Brexit.
KudosDave

That's saying you want MPs to decide but they aren't allowed to make decision I (you)want...??? Answer , if they cant ,vote in the ones that can..thats democracy.
Unfortunately there simply are not enough remainers to do so..ir so it would appear..Otherwise this process would be happening. At the moment remainers are wanting representation above their number, hence why they rely on shouting,insulting and put downs. ( not from yourself, but read the bile on here and hitting facebook/ twitter etc etc predominantly ( but not exclusively) from remainers.