Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

I can't see too much wrong with the premise in this piece of propaganda:

Tom

Indeed, exactly my views too. I see the USA as the world's worst terrorist nation of modern times, in consequence causing so much of the terrorist retaliation we suffer. Their guilt is shared by the UK due to our willing and unquestioning cooperation in their aggression.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

I don't think the referendum result would have been any different, whatever the EU countries did for Cameron. The anti-EU feeling had long been deeply ingrained into our working class society and and become even more widespread and strong than had been suspected.

Now we pay the price for that.
.

Forty plus years of Anti EU lies and propaganda have certainly paid off for the Elite and duped the UK voters without a shadow of a doubt

 

[Kudoscycles]

The West Staffs area.....Cannock,Walsall,Lichfield....has completely reversed its Brexit vote....March 2016 had a 62% Leave,37% Remain....a recent vote absolutely reversed those numbers.
But as important the recent vote 82% said that Theresa May is doing a bad job of Brexit.
Theresa May keeps saying 'she is determined to respect the will of the people'.....she isn't respecting the will of the people and even if she is,she is doing a bad job that not many people now want.
A second referendum,based upon what we now know and see,prior to triggering Article 50,would be democratic.
There appears to be very few people supporting Theresa May and she seems singularly the only member of the government to really be pushing for Brexit,to keep the PM job,which she clearly loves.
Even the Queen wants to know what Brexit means and doesn't trust Theresa May not to break up the UK.
By some way we must rid ourselves of May,she is proving a very selfish politician,she doesn't care about our country only pursuing Brexit for her own ends. She looks like your favourite aunt but in reality she is a right wing fascist,a very dangerous lady.
KudosDave

 

[anotherkiwi]

Theresa May keeps saying 'she is determined to respect the will of the people'.

That should be "respect the will of the tiny majority of those who went out to vote". I do agree with tilson on one point: if you don't go out and vote you can't complain about the result.

However a 52/48 split can hardly be called "the will of the people" whatever way you look at it from. IIRC referendums in one of the countries I have lived in required a 60/40 majority to be considered "the will of the people".

 

[Kudoscycles]

I just don't see why Theresa May won't give us a second referendum .....even from her viewpoint Brexit doesn't seem such a good idea,it would get her out of a difficult situation.
Second referendums are commonplace amongst EU decisions,we all are much more knowledgable about Brexit,Boris's lies about the bus would be forgotten and the original vote of 52/48 was hardly a landslide mandate.
A vote in parliament for a second referendum would not lock MPs into agreeing to the original constituents vote,for they could say that they are giving us all another chance.
Perhaps expats in Europe and 16 year olds could be included this time,both groups are affected by Brexit more than most.
KudosDave

 

[Jimod]

I just don't see why Theresa May won't give us a second referendum .....

There are loads of people up here asking the same question. Mind you, they're talking about a different referendum. That in itself gives the PM a problem, if she decides on a 2nd EU referendum, how could her Tory minions up here complain about Nicola Sturgeon asking for another independance referendum.
We're living in 'interesting' times.

 

[flecc]

Perhaps expats in Europe and 16 year olds could be included this time,both groups are affected by Brexit more than most.
KudosDave

Fully agree with this, it would be more fair.

But I don't see a second referendum based on the previous voters being very much different. It could and probably would reverse the result, but with that still being marginal it still wouldn't truly decide anything.

All in all it's been a lesson in why we should adhere to rule by parliament in a parliamentary democracy. Having the referendum so soon after a general election has placed the public in the ridiculous situation of having made opposing votes. By voting for the MPs they elected they voted to stay in the EU, but then in the refendum they voted to leave!
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

There are loads of people up here asking the same question. Mind you, they're talking about a different referendum. That in itself gives the PM a problem, if she decides on a 2nd EU referendum, how could her Tory minions up here complain about Nicola Sturgeon asking for another independance referendum.
We're living in 'interesting' times.

Jim,I think that Scotland without the revenues from North Sea oil would be in a difficult situation without help from the UK.
I can understand that Nicola Sturgeon is using the threat of a second independence referendum to put pressure on Theresa May to stay in the single market....but we all need an outcome of Brexit before a Scottish referendum would be valid....for example if Scotland voted to split and Brexit was abandoned or very soft Brexit,it would make any Scottish independence vote irrelevant.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Fully agree with this, it would be more fair.

But I don't see a second referendum based on the previous voters being very much different. It could and probably would reverse the result, but with that still being marginal it still wouldn't truly decide anything.

All in all it's been a lesson in why we should adhere to rule by parliament in a parliamentary democracy. Having the referendum so soon after a general election has placed the public in the ridiculous situation of having made opposing votes. By voting for the MPs they elected they voted to stay in the EU, but then in the refendum they voted to leave!
.

It should have a solid majority to have a mandate....the poll vote in the West Midlands would suggest that a second referendum would have a decisive Remain vote.
Whether Leaver or Remainer,we all seem agreed that Theresa May and the Brexiteers are making a real mess of leaving.
I spoke yesterday to a friend who is a minion in the Foreign Office,Boris's Department,he confirmed that nobody has done anything in that dept. to prepare for Brexit....I pressed him that maybe it wasn't his section,he confirmed that nobody,absolutely nobody,including Boris,had done anything about Brexit,it's not happening.
KudosDave

 

[Lister]

Fact.
We do not know at all what is going on politically in the background.
There are meetings in progress with potential business partners around the globe.
Brexit is a major project with long and protracted business and political objectives.
We do not know enough to have any understanding of the current situation.
No, I am not happy with it all, but understand that in negotiations, one keeps ones plans and desires under cover, until disclosure is required..

 

[flecc]

Fact.
We do not know at all what is going on politically in the background.
There are meetings in progress with potential business partners around the globe.
Brexit is a major project with long and protracted business and political objectives.
We do not know enough to have any understanding of the current situation.
No, I am not happy with it all, but understand that in negotiations, one keeps ones plans and desires under cover, until disclosure is required..

But potential trade agreements with those outside the EU are peripheral issues to follow Brexit, not Brexit itself which is leaving the EU.

We know exactly what is going on with Brexit, it's nothing. That's because there are no Brexit negotiations, since the EU and member countries understandably will not discuss anything before we hand in article 50 notice.
.

 

[oldtom]

By some way we must rid ourselves of May,she is proving a very selfish politician,she doesn't care about our country only pursuing Brexit for her own ends.

I agree entirely with your view on her Dave. She is no people's champion and I hope she goes soon, by whatever means.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

Just to remind everyone, the only reason Brexit will go ahead is because of Cameron's promise, the election where it was part of the Conservative Manifesto can only be seen in reality as promising it would take place on the following terms.
"
Briefing paper 7212.
"This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions. The referendums held in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in 1997 and 1998 are examples of this type, where opinion was tested before legislation was introduced. The UK does not have constitutional provisions which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented, unlike, for example, the Republic of Ireland, where the circumstances in which a binding referendum should be held are set out in its constitution. "
Here is the link to the full documantation
http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7212

In effect the decision by Cameron to resign rather than invoke Article 50 means that the promise he made was cancelled and the referendum has no legal force whatsoever.
It is entirely up to Parliament to decide what to do.
My Recommendation: Forget the whole stupid idea and move on.

 

[oldgroaner]

I agree entirely with your view on her Dave. She is no people's champion and I hope she goes soon, by whatever means.

Tom

Perhaps we could send her a Mirror for Christmas?

 

[flecc]

Perhaps we could send her a Mirror for Christmas?

She'd probably just start chanting:

"Mirror, mirror, on the wall

Who is the fairest of them all"

It is after all the pantomime season.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

She'd probably just start chanting:

"Mirror, mirror, on the wall

Who is the fairest of them all"

It is after all the pantomime season.
.

I was thinking more along the lines of the Dracula legend.

 

[oldtom]

Fully agree with this, it would be more fair.

Ditto that 'flecc'! My only problem with it is that fairness has never formed any part of the capitalist dogma so beloved by the tories.

I really cannot remember any tory manifesto which contained any policy proposals remotely akin to the concept of a more equitable society - another of the reasons why I am socialist.

Tom

 

[gray198]

I agree entirely with your view on her Dave. She is no people's champion and I hope she goes soon, by whatever means.

Tom

to be replaced by who?????

 

[oldgroaner]

to be replaced by who?????

Well, I'm Free!

 

[oldtom]

to be replaced by who?????

The word should be 'whom' - please buck up!

Tom