that's a bit rich; you dislike my neutral objective post about Italy having 60 governments in 70 years and call others intolerant when they don't agree with your attempt to invest what's happening with an agenda about the breaking up of the eu? you're right about the average uk citizen being insular - but not as part of not taking an interest in Europe, more in terms of buying into close minded self interested prejudices thrown at them by British "newspapers". maybe you should try to read some European (Italian) newspapers and have a more balanced perspective.
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
here
http://www.corriere.it/
it's Italy's biggest newspaper, reporting on the referendum, if your Italian is like mine patchy cut and paste it into a translator
I've just been listening to a number of Italian commentators, politicians and public being interviewed, and all were emphatic. They all said that the referendum was not about the EU, the euro or populism, insisting it was solely about Italian politics.
Nigel Farage's suggestion that it was about the euro was treated as ridiculous.
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Note the complete lack of any reference to a wish to leave the EU!
yes, basically as I understand it, Renzi proposed constitutional reform that would have stabilised the Italian government by making thresholds for electing a president etc. higher - and the opposition - naturally - opposed that, vehemently, wanting thresholds to remain low in order to have more chance of getting into power. it was a bit like the dispute about electoral boundaries in the uk
My feelings are and others I have spoken to that quitting the single market is not a priority amongst most referendum voters,whether leaver or remainer,in fact most would be happy to stay in.
The most important priority is control of immigration.
Aren't we in danger of 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'. We would choose to wreck our country economically just to control immigration?....am I correct in that scenario?
This is the reason why I want Theresa May to fail in the supreme court action...I am concerned that she is more right wing than she appears and maybe will trigger Article 50 and accept an awful deal with the EU,just to appease the right wingers of the Tory party. Ironically it was trying to shut up those MP's and UKIP that caused Cameron to offer this referendum in the first place.
If she fails in her high court action,she will have to present her A50 bill to parliament,they can then amend the bill to avoid the economic suicide of hard Brexit.
KudosDave
It depends on what form 'out' takes?
If we just leave,then the EU will immediately put all the import tariffs that currently exist between the world and the EU onto between the UK and the EU.
Lets look at this in practice,take the product of bicycles,they have a 48.5% anti-dumping duty plus normal tariff,say from China to the EU (including the UK),55%....that makes it difficult to sell cheap Asian bikes into the EU(incl the UK).
If we just quit,like some ardent leavers insist on....'we voted leave,now get us out'....the EU will immediately look on the UK as a satellite of China.
This will be ok for selling in the UK but english bike manufacturers (Pashley/Brompton etc) would be hopelessly uncompetitive selling into the EU,they would take a big hit.
The same applies to cars,steel,alloy wheels,leather goods ....anything with high tariffs,this would result in many companies going bust and many redundancies in the UK.
Big companies would overcome this by shipping all current EU exports direct to Rotterdam and not Felixstowe,this would be a considerable loss of work and revenue in the UK
There would be the practical problem of every lorry shipping out of Dover would have to be custom cleared before EU entry,anyone who lives in Kent knows what a nightmare that could be.
We would end up a very inward looking country,content on our home market.
KudosDave
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apologies for going on, but in a sense your post makes much sense to me, as an immigrant, inasmuch as the uk has always treated Europe with antipathy
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26515129
and usually wrongly - see post war recovery of Germany and France and the uk wanting to join to have part of that cake - despite it's hostility towards Europe. brexit is really just more of the same - the uk behaving with antipathy towards a neighbour it needs, and in the long run has to grow closer to.
Good post Kudos, well written and respectfull. You haven't changed my mind but good effort.
On the effect of Italy on euro...Italy represents at most 20% of EU financial market. UK represents 100% of its own. Obviously what we do has more effect on pound than Italy does affecting euro.
OG/ Derf/ Kiwi. etc( if cap fits)
I offered the opinion that given Italy,s normal attitude to voting and the 70% turnout with 60% going against government I think there will be an EU referendum . Didn't say when just that it will happen.
And since posting on here about 2 weeks ago I,ve been called a bigot, a racist, a xenophobe, dont understand, live in parallel reality,to get foreign language skills; to get English lessons. For the most part this thread is dominated by socially inept ignorant hypocritical posters. I go back and reply to the most patronising of you all " maybe you should feck off" and you hit the report buttons..Brilliant.
And by the way.. How come you lot dont pay road tax, insurance or even have a traceable identity on your bikes but get 770 million pound spent on London cycleways taken off motorists.Must be only group of any who dont pay a thing towards using ( and abusing) their chosen mode of transport.
You,d think you'd all be happy but most of you so angry...
Derf I might owe you an apology, not sure where your last post is coming from. Trouble is on here you get bombarded with so much anger that you tend to associate all within it.
On the effect of Italy on euro...Italy represents at most 20% of EU financial market. UK represents 100% of its own. Obviously what we do has more effect on pound than Italy does affecting euro.
OG/ Derf/ Kiwi. etc( if cap fits)
I offered the opinion that given Italy,s normal attitude to voting and the 70% turnout with 60% going against government I think there will be an EU referendum . Didn't say when just that it will happen.
And since posting on here about 2 weeks ago I,ve been called a bigot, a racist, a xenophobe, dont understand, live in parallel reality,to get foreign language skills; to get English lessons. For the most part this thread is dominated by socially inept ignorant hypocritical posters. I go back and reply to the most patronising of you all " maybe you should feck off" and you hit the report buttons..Brilliant.
And by the way.. How come you lot dont pay road tax, insurance or even have a traceable identity on your bikes but get 770 million pound spent on London cycleways taken off motorists.Must be only group of any who dont pay a thing towards using ( and abusing) their chosen mode of transport.
You,d think you'd all be happy but most of you so angry...
Derf I might owe you an apology, not sure where your last post is coming from. Trouble is on here you get bombarded with so much anger that you tend to associate all within it.
there's anger from both sides. for me part of it is taking unnecessary damage. if someone did to my boat what brexitters did to much of my investment in the uk I'd shove a flare gun up his behind and pull the trigger. I should be objecting to it more in principle, but much of that is more long term, and not clear, so I don't feel that yet.
My UK investments are doing fine ??? Really well infact..???
The article is very good..
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Actually I do, since like many of not most e-bikers. I also have a car. The taxation for that covers all my travel, so if some of that travel is on my bike, I'm still paying my way but cutting wear and tear on the roads.
We even have a few members with two or more cars who really are paying extra, since they can only use one car at a time but pay for each of them all the time.
That is not taken from the motorists taxation since tax incomes are not hypothecated, they all go into a national budget. Since London bankrolls the rest of the country with the huge surplus it earns as the most successful part of the UK, that cycleway money is just a very small part of what we Londoners, including the over 300,000 cycle commuters, earn each and every year.
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I think you may be making the same mistake as those who trend the ftse 100 in pounds instead of dollars
Nothing to do with FTSE. I have to live off my investments in stock market. Their capital value has increased since June 23rd and my monthly dividend payment is exactly same..???
So why shouldn't you pay to use roads?? And why don't you need insurance?? And why no traceability??
And most of government revenue for roads comes from the tax on fuel, so I you use your bike over your car you pay nothing ??? And the 770 million comes from somewhere , if its for cycle lanes why shouldn't cyclists contribute as cyclists???
Seems you expect cycle lanes , that seriously impede other road users but contribute nothing.
Bikes should be registered with number plates and riders tested. A few less might get killed then??
Or made to wear helmets ???
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Supreme Court....I watched some of it this morning....didnt seem much new in the governments arguments.
The following is a typical reply to judges questions...Eadie seems to be No2 in the governments legal team.
question from Lord Wilson:
You’ve shown convincingly that our accession to the EEC (the forerunner to the EU) in 1972 was a joint effort by parliament and prerogative, can you show that pulling out will not require a similar joint effort?
Eadie unsurprisingly demurs. He says you need a joint effort to go in to transfer powers to the UK but not to get out. The justices do not seem convinced.
I dont think the government's team seem interested,I think the attitude is we have lost before its begun....nice fat fees though,that we the taxpayer are paying for.
KudosDave
The following is a typical reply to judges questions...Eadie seems to be No2 in the governments legal team.
question from Lord Wilson:
You’ve shown convincingly that our accession to the EEC (the forerunner to the EU) in 1972 was a joint effort by parliament and prerogative, can you show that pulling out will not require a similar joint effort?
Eadie unsurprisingly demurs. He says you need a joint effort to go in to transfer powers to the UK but not to get out. The justices do not seem convinced.
I dont think the government's team seem interested,I think the attitude is we have lost before its begun....nice fat fees though,that we the taxpayer are paying for.
KudosDave
You really do have trouble with anger, don't you? then describe your own shortcomings and ascribe them to others.
When you came on here waving the rule book, you missed out that swear words are not merely the actual words, but ones intended to fool obscenity filters.
The criticism of your doing just that is fair and justified.
You don't make me angry, personally, sad, certainly, disappointed too,please do work harder on those social skills, and remaining on topic, while a new experience for you is recommended.
By and large you have good intentions, nevertheless just a very different view of the way they can be achieved.
Be fair, you have brought anger down upon yourself, it didn't arrive uninvited.
Read my post again! I've told you that taxes are not hypothecated, no one pays for road usage. Since drivers don't pay for the roads, nor pedestrians for crossings, why should cyclists?
I don't know where you got the idea that I expect cycle lanes. The reality is that it's the governments, national and local, who want to promote cycling to get themselves off the hook of roads congestion and pollution, so they have been the promoters of cycle lanes and cycling budgets.
What on earth has this to do with cycleway budgets? The other posters are right, you seem unable to keep to a subject and you seem to be anti-everything.
In fact London's cycling death rates are the lowest in the UK. Pro-rata with elsewhere we'd need 14 deaths per annum to be equal. In the last full year (2015) we had 9 deaths, and in the current year nearly at an end, it's 6 deaths.
It's the rest of the country that needs to improve to get anywhere near us.
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(personal insult removed by admin) I don't know who is the most self opinionated, bigoted argumentutive remainer posting on here but you are certainly in top 2.
I challenge you to find a post I have made initiating insult or patronising. Mine have all been in response to yours or Toms argumentutive bile. This thread is ( or should be) an embarrassment to any folk really interested in cycling, which you plainly aren't. ( And before you reply I don't even own a bike)
And, for what its worth. In years to come if this current nonsense ends up in riots and violence I,ll look back with little surprise after the way you and a few others have responded to posts on here. Why you have been allowed to hijack this forum/ thread is beyond me.
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