yes, that can happen and may take more than 10 years if the country still wants to isolate itself. The ultimate destination of Brexiteers is the non-aligned states (Russia, Turkey and Israel within Europe). Somehow I don't think our American cousins will like that very much. The trouble is most of the voters for Brexit don't know much about any of this.
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
To me the whole issue is rendered hollow by the fact that the media and the politicians talk about 'winning' the referendum.
It's not a competition, or an election - it's a way of assessing public opinion.
Nobody wins that.
When words are spun around to mean something different, we know, or we damn well should, that we are being led by the nose.
Our politicians should be preparing strategies for either result, and giving their best advice.
Instead they are apparently preparing to take a vitally important step with possibly a small majority of popular support.
That doesn't make any kind of sense to me.
If politicians made clean water and good drains their priority, and worked up from there, I could see the sense in that.
Volvo.
It's not a competition, or an election - it's a way of assessing public opinion.
Nobody wins that.
When words are spun around to mean something different, we know, or we damn well should, that we are being led by the nose.
Our politicians should be preparing strategies for either result, and giving their best advice.
Instead they are apparently preparing to take a vitally important step with possibly a small majority of popular support.
That doesn't make any kind of sense to me.
If politicians made clean water and good drains their priority, and worked up from there, I could see the sense in that.
Volvo.
and for once the list of fictions like 'Fishing boats obliged to carry condoms' or 'the EU responsible for your hay fever'. There are hundreds like them here:
http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/
it's kind of sad.
http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/
it's kind of sad.
This morning the Daily Express printed yet another article
"Migrant Crisis Five Million new EU citizens given right to enter Britain.
And so, as a test as to just how even handed this paper is I posted this (pretty much as I posted it here earlier.) and this is how it was instantly marked.
"
Your comment is awaiting moderation (Daily Express)
Here are a few of the things you rarely see in this paper.
Are you aware that free movement is actually conditional? here is the EU ruling:
"Migrant workers’ right to reside for more than three months remains subject to certain conditions, which vary depending on the citizen’s status: for EU citizens who are not workers or self-employed, the right of residence depends on their having sufficient resources not to become a burden on the host Member State’s social assistance system, and having sickness insurance. EU citizens acquire the right of permanent residence in the host Member State after a period of five years of uninterrupted legal residence.
Contrary to popular belief they cannot just move over here and stay to become a benefits claimant
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_3.1.3.html
Here is something that proves Gove is wrong;
"The Treaty allows a Member State to refuse an EU national the right of entry or residence on the grounds of public policy, public security or public health. Such measures must be based on the personal conduct of the individual concerned, which must represent a sufficiently serious and present threat to the fundamental interests of the state. In this regard, Directive 2004/38/EC provides for a series of procedural guarantees."
And how about the flood form Bulgaria, Roumania etc?
We can stop that if we wish
"During a transitional period after the accession of new Member States, certain conditions can be applied that restrict the free movement of workers from, to and between those Member States. These restrictions do not concern travel abroad or self-employed activity, and they may differ from one Member State to another. The remaining transitional periods applicable to the accession of Bulgaria and Romania in 2007 were lifted on 1 January 2014. There are currently transitional periods for Croatian nationals, which must be lifted by July 2020 at the latest."
Note;may differ from one Member State to another, meaning there is LOCAL control."
Guess what, it didn't get past Moderation; any Brexit fan able to give me a reason?
It was a good test of the Impartiallity of the paper, which it FAILED.
Never let the truth get in the way when conning the public is how they obviously operate.
"Migrant Crisis Five Million new EU citizens given right to enter Britain.
And so, as a test as to just how even handed this paper is I posted this (pretty much as I posted it here earlier.) and this is how it was instantly marked.
"
Your comment is awaiting moderation (Daily Express)
Here are a few of the things you rarely see in this paper.
Are you aware that free movement is actually conditional? here is the EU ruling:
"Migrant workers’ right to reside for more than three months remains subject to certain conditions, which vary depending on the citizen’s status: for EU citizens who are not workers or self-employed, the right of residence depends on their having sufficient resources not to become a burden on the host Member State’s social assistance system, and having sickness insurance. EU citizens acquire the right of permanent residence in the host Member State after a period of five years of uninterrupted legal residence.
Contrary to popular belief they cannot just move over here and stay to become a benefits claimant
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_3.1.3.html
Here is something that proves Gove is wrong;
"The Treaty allows a Member State to refuse an EU national the right of entry or residence on the grounds of public policy, public security or public health. Such measures must be based on the personal conduct of the individual concerned, which must represent a sufficiently serious and present threat to the fundamental interests of the state. In this regard, Directive 2004/38/EC provides for a series of procedural guarantees."
And how about the flood form Bulgaria, Roumania etc?
We can stop that if we wish
"During a transitional period after the accession of new Member States, certain conditions can be applied that restrict the free movement of workers from, to and between those Member States. These restrictions do not concern travel abroad or self-employed activity, and they may differ from one Member State to another. The remaining transitional periods applicable to the accession of Bulgaria and Romania in 2007 were lifted on 1 January 2014. There are currently transitional periods for Croatian nationals, which must be lifted by July 2020 at the latest."
Note;may differ from one Member State to another, meaning there is LOCAL control."
Guess what, it didn't get past Moderation; any Brexit fan able to give me a reason?
It was a good test of the Impartiallity of the paper, which it FAILED.
Never let the truth get in the way when conning the public is how they obviously operate.
newspapers in the UK are privately owned and usually carry propaganda for their billionaire owners. The UK seem to shelter more billionaires than most. The EU action on offshore tax havens must have rattled them a bit.
bookies' view on probability:
remain: 58%
leave: 42%
Leave is catching up very fast in the last 3 days.
http://sports.ladbrokes.com/sports-central/uk-eu-referendum/
remain: 58%
leave: 42%
Leave is catching up very fast in the last 3 days.
http://sports.ladbrokes.com/sports-central/uk-eu-referendum/
This yo-yo swinging will inevitably happen, but it probably means little. The most crucial thing will be what happens on Monday 20th, Tuesday 21st and Wednesday 22nd since that can and probably will decide the outcome on the 23rd.
Up until these days all the previous claims and counterclaims will have been forgotten and replaced in memory by the latest propaganda from both sides.
.
That amused me too. However, his exaggeration is probably only an attempt to trump the other Donald.
.
I reckon he is exaggerating more than a little if he thinks this country is "Politically Civilised"
The UK used to rely on 'MAD' -- Mutually Assured Destruction. Someone fires a nuke at us, and we respond automatically, thus discouraging any attempt.
We lost an unnoticed nuclear war when we allowed the USA to establish military nuclear armed bases here.
Now we no longer have the opportunity to retaliate. We can't employ Trident without American consent, since they have retained the necessary software and if a huge nuclear blast eliminated RAF Croughton for example, and the surrounding countryside for miles around, polluting our entire island, they could blame whichever poor but oil or lithium-rich country they wanted to invade next.
What's not to like, dude?
This is why the Military/Industrial Complex will decide the Referendum, and why we are in no position to start an argument we couldn't finish.
The naive optimism of the average English voter, fondly imagining that they are participating in a meaningful way in the course of their future by voting for Tweedle-Dum, as opposed to Tweedle-Dee in a general election, or in/out in a referendum would be screamingly funny, were it not so abjectly pathetic.
As long as we keep playing their game, by voting like Pavlovian mutts, we will ensure their continuation.
If, and when, a significant majority says "No, you don't get my support as a voter, I want something that is not as yet on offer" we might start to get somewhere.
I think there is fat chance of this occurring, or possibly a slim chance.
America is bankrupt on so many levels, that global stability is about as safe as the dollar. And 97% of dollars only exist in cyberspace.
I suspect that the era of small changes is over.
Volvo.
We lost an unnoticed nuclear war when we allowed the USA to establish military nuclear armed bases here.
Now we no longer have the opportunity to retaliate. We can't employ Trident without American consent, since they have retained the necessary software and if a huge nuclear blast eliminated RAF Croughton for example, and the surrounding countryside for miles around, polluting our entire island, they could blame whichever poor but oil or lithium-rich country they wanted to invade next.
What's not to like, dude?
This is why the Military/Industrial Complex will decide the Referendum, and why we are in no position to start an argument we couldn't finish.
The naive optimism of the average English voter, fondly imagining that they are participating in a meaningful way in the course of their future by voting for Tweedle-Dum, as opposed to Tweedle-Dee in a general election, or in/out in a referendum would be screamingly funny, were it not so abjectly pathetic.
As long as we keep playing their game, by voting like Pavlovian mutts, we will ensure their continuation.
If, and when, a significant majority says "No, you don't get my support as a voter, I want something that is not as yet on offer" we might start to get somewhere.
I think there is fat chance of this occurring, or possibly a slim chance.
America is bankrupt on so many levels, that global stability is about as safe as the dollar. And 97% of dollars only exist in cyberspace.
I suspect that the era of small changes is over.
Volvo.
mostly agree with you, but for fact that the average trump supporter no doubt think they "are opting for something not yet on offer", when in reality opting for something even more populist and corrupt than status quo. only analogy I can think of is listening to radio this AM and hearing chief of police in charge at Hillsborough used public funds to smear families. And that his superior investigating this was responsible during cover up of organised child sexual abuse. other than philosophically opting for lesser evils I don't see any way out.
History will record that no country has ever believed more lies about an organisation set up to be a benefit to the people than this one, and I fear we are about to reap the benefit of our own cupidity if we actually believe we can or even will be allowed to operate outside it.
Unless of course we so antagonise the EU Parliament that in frustration they give us a well deserved kick up the backside and show us the door.
In the meantime I have bookmarked that site
http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/
That has been so kindly provided, in order to spend many happy hours reminding Brexit fans after their win that they asked for it, in fact cried out for it!
Really I am only applying part of Einstein's second theory in expecting a Brexit win.
You know the one
"Only three things are certain in this life.
Death
Taxes
Human Stupidity
And I am not on reflection absolutely certain about death."
Unless of course we so antagonise the EU Parliament that in frustration they give us a well deserved kick up the backside and show us the door.
In the meantime I have bookmarked that site
http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/
That has been so kindly provided, in order to spend many happy hours reminding Brexit fans after their win that they asked for it, in fact cried out for it!
Really I am only applying part of Einstein's second theory in expecting a Brexit win.
You know the one
"Only three things are certain in this life.
Death
Taxes
Human Stupidity
And I am not on reflection absolutely certain about death."
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I think the same way concerning Trump's supporters derf - he really seems to know what bait to use, and the infamous 'Climate of Fear' is always being ratcheted up -- he seems to offer a quick neat solution, and no doubt it looks like a chance for something new.
In reality though, they are supporting the status quo by voting, when they could show a complete lack of confidence by not voting. Unlikely in the real world of course, where I believe the only possibility for change, and the only change necessary, is individually, from within.
If I understand it correctly, they are frequently armed to the teeth with assault rifles, in case some nasty government tries to put one over on them.
I wonder how that's working out ...?
Volvo.
In reality though, they are supporting the status quo by voting, when they could show a complete lack of confidence by not voting. Unlikely in the real world of course, where I believe the only possibility for change, and the only change necessary, is individually, from within.
If I understand it correctly, they are frequently armed to the teeth with assault rifles, in case some nasty government tries to put one over on them.
I wonder how that's working out ...?
Volvo.
if the uk votes to stay I personally will never vote again. I don't care who gets in. They will only be able to do the bidding of the eu
You have been provided with a lot of information on this thread that you can check, and yet either haven't bothered to read it, didn't understand it or simply checkable facts make no impression.
You have as have we all , been lied to for many years by Governments on both sides and the press about the EU to cover up their mistakes.
And don't you think it odd that it is so hard to offer a contradictory view, and yet without really having any solid provable facts, only Urban legends lies and distortion, you have still decided that the EU that so obviously has been a great benefit to you personally is your arch enemy.
This attitude is so prevalent that I remain convinced of a Brexit victory, as many more people have the same attitude and cannot be reasoned with.
Despite the fact that this already applies to recently joined countries, intervention will not affect the inevitable result as you get nowhere shouting at the Deaf.
Too many years of lies have ranged the public mind against the EU