but it is morbidly fascinating: bush and blair left us the current syria/iraq/iran/egypt fiasco. With any luck cameron will leave us the break up of the union (and perhaps the EU). To do justice to these kind of levels of national leadership a future boris and trump would at least have to trigger a world war three..
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Flecc agreed, but at least we would have the ability to get rid of our own useless lot at the next election
But how will that change the fact that the country has gone to the dogs?
Some victory, reminiscent of the charge of the light brigade.
Lets assume Brexit happens and the Tory's get into even more trouble than they are already, what would be the reaction of the next Government faced with impossible odds to get the country back on it's feet.
Well I'll give you a clue.
They would look for the only practical and available solution.
last time we were in such a situation we joined the Common Market.
It would be now as back then the only viable option.
So what on Earth is the point of coming out? the EU doesn't Govern us, our own Government as we have proved has all the power it needs, too much in fact when you look at the fact that being in the EU in no way restricts their waging stupid wars of aggression in the middle East, adding to the problem of movement of peoples or are you of the opinion it didn't?
We can easily change the people who are responsible for damaging this country, vote differently in the next General Election.
The EU has a far more beneficial effect than they ever have.
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most people can't get their head around the argument that the EU is the best defence for the majority against their own goverments which are very often voted in by a minority.
too true - try to imagine what a parralel universe in which the likes of priti patel ("the EU creates an unnecessary burden of workers' rights") or chris gryling ("the recession is due to consumers not living within their means") will really be like
Well it would I suppose give the Brexiteers a Government they Deserve, and looking on the bright side we would see the UKIP in all their tawdry splendour standing in the dole queue (probably under heavy police protection)
The thought has just occurred that when Putin recovers from the Hernia he suffered laughing as a result of the Brexit vote, he might offer to take us into the Russian Free Trade Federation, much nicer than the Chinese offer.
We must be a source of intense amusement in the Kremlin with these idiotic self destructive antics.
But that's just me looking on the bright side, as i have remember forecast a win for Brexit, and i'm clutching at straws for comfort.
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I agree we'd have that abilty, but not one of any value, given how poor the choice is.
I much prefer the social policies and far less warlike stance of the EU administration and prefer to vote for that in this referendum.
Therefore if successful, I will have voted democratically for the EU that partially governs me, just as I did in 1975.
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If there is a vote for Brexit, I would be very hard pressed to recommend negotiators from the current groups, now that's an issue, it certainly can't be Cameron and his "inners'
Yes of course, including much of the tripe that has been posted on this thread, you would really think some of you are on the campaign teams rather than just sharing opinions and trying to find the truth
I say old chap, it's jolly sporting of you to make such a confession without being asked.
Seriously though The balance of claims and allegations that can be checked and discounted either for truthfulness or probability of being likely to occur weighs heavily against the Brexit Camp, but then, as
Aneurin Bevan put it once, “You tell me your truth, and I'll tell you mine.”
is really the problem.
It's not a campaign that will hinge on truth, but rather on hysteria isn't it?
Hence my belief (sadly) is in a Brexit victory.
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Very droll, but having been absent from the thread for a few days and just catching up, it struck me again just how negative and already decided much of the posts are. Not like a debate at all, little more than the politicians are doing, regrettable really. I'll leave you to consider, are you part of the solution or part of the problemI say old chap, it's jolly sporting of you to make such a confession without being asked.
But one thing that strikes me about you inners is how desparaging you are of our own governments, and our own country, just like the politicians you hate
Disparaging? you are jesting of course, can you think of anything complimentary to say about any of them?
We are all part of the problem, ironically if it wasn't for the politicians messing about there wouldn't be one would there?
You really do not comprehend what "our own country means, do you?"
It's not about waving silly flags and shouting "Rule Brittania" it's about having an ordered and civilised society that lives in peace with rest of the world and doesn't behave like bunch of Pirates on the high seas if it thinks Oil or any other source of revenue is threatened, and works against the public to favour a few at the top of the money pile.
This country has enemies,yes indeed, and sadly most of them have been here for generations holding the reins of power.
Study History and you will see the truth of that.
We need Democracy, not the sham that we have now.
As I said previously I expect a Brexit victory, and then for the Government to behave in a manner exactly in line the old saying
"Power corrupts, and Absolute Power corrupts absolutely"
I believe you will get what you want, only to find it wasn't what you were expecting or desired.
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Realism Brendan, do you really think our politicians and national performance over the last half a century earn a more optimistic view?
It would be the civil servants directed by Cameron and co, assisted by appointees who are cronies of Cameron and co.
So I'm afraid it can and will be them in the event of us voting to leave. That also tells us the negotiation outcome, the Norwegian one of full compatibility with the EU.
After all, as I observed earlier, it's just so easy to go that way since we already have all the EU laws and regulations in place. The alternative of uncoupling us from 44 years of legal binding with the EU is far too difficult to attract consideration.
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Hi Flecc
I agree with you that our internal politics has not been good , but depends on what part of the spectrum you lie
I am of firm socialist background but got disallusioned with there doctrine many years ago
The Blair years were interesting, I voted for him and now regard him with nothing short of hatred
I voted for Cameron and the first term I think they did a good job, the 2nd term they have definately lost the plot and I would not believe one word they say including there deceiptfull crap on the referendum
What really disappoints me in this whole debate is the entrenched positions with no grey areas or points of concession, just right and wrong, black and white, no better than the politicians,.
Shame on all of us! And the NEGATiVITY
Tone it down guys and discuss the issues
Regarding the outcomes of the referendum, I would say only one thing, the referendum result is not the conclusion, just the start of the dialogue and negotiation, the issue is not in or out, but what kind of Europe do you want and are you prepared to fight for it, not each other but the issues
I agree with you that our internal politics has not been good , but depends on what part of the spectrum you lie
I am of firm socialist background but got disallusioned with there doctrine many years ago
The Blair years were interesting, I voted for him and now regard him with nothing short of hatred
I voted for Cameron and the first term I think they did a good job, the 2nd term they have definately lost the plot and I would not believe one word they say including there deceiptfull crap on the referendum
What really disappoints me in this whole debate is the entrenched positions with no grey areas or points of concession, just right and wrong, black and white, no better than the politicians,.
Shame on all of us! And the NEGATiVITY
Tone it down guys and discuss the issues
Regarding the outcomes of the referendum, I would say only one thing, the referendum result is not the conclusion, just the start of the dialogue and negotiation, the issue is not in or out, but what kind of Europe do you want and are you prepared to fight for it, not each other but the issues
If this scenario works out, then the Brexiteers have managed a truly magnificent stunt of not gaining anything in the way of self determination, but ridding the EU of it's worst member nation, and robbing us of being in any position to influence what the EU does.
Britain has access to a huge market under preferential terms and has a say in the running of it's affairs, and has been a major player.
Only an organisation Genius could manage to eliminate both at the same time and turn us into a client nation at the beck and call of our former friends
But my position is based on the issues, I prefer the EU mix to the UK one. On social policy it's the EU, on attitudes to wars it's the EU. On justice it's the EU. On past and present UK trading evidence, it's being in the EU.
The objections on immigration I recognise have some validity to many, but I live in London where we white British born are also a minority, and I like that. I don't mind a multicultural society and much prefer it to the bigoted, narrow minded monoculture I grew up in when young.
As for the levels of immigration, it's self-adjusting. If no jobs are available and standards of living start to decline, the immigrants and other EU citizens will target somewhere else. You've already seen the truth of that with their widespread preference for Germany.
So I'm not being negative, my decision is based solely on facts, not on blatant lies about what the EU costs us and mistaken notions that leaving will give us genuine sovereignty.
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Tone it down, as in agree that Brexit is a good idea?
Are you prepared to fight for what exactly if you are not inside an organisation?
Come on Brendan in order to fight for change you need to be in a position to do so, as we are now, not out on the street.
Why do you see grey areas where there are none to see? the issues are perfectly clear.
And the end result is too; Hysteria will create a Brexit win that will not achieve anything other than to make matters worse.
Shame on all of us? because we have opinions you don't like?
Using the provable truth to counter misinformation is NOT negativity by the way, and your notion that the referendum is just the start of dialogue is in fact only your personal opinion which is unlikely to resonate with the public at large, who simply want blood (in a methaphorical sense)
Frankly if you are for Brexit, why are you interested in fighting for a different Kind of Europe?
Which side are you on, or do you believe there is a third one?
In, out, or Shake it all about?
Now that is really NEGATIVITY, wanting to sound as if you want Brexit to harass the EU into acceding to your demands.
Good luck with that!
All it needs is about ten years and we could end up in the Russian free trade empire? I believe I made a jest about that in a earlier post but it seems to be looking good to the Brexit camp.Brexiters do have a plan: flexcit
you can see why the Russians are interested in Brexit.