Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Many are rightly asking for facts instead of the inane propaganda that both sides are issuing in the EU dabate.

Here for once is an actual case which includes many of the consequences that will accompany Brexit and any attempt to limit EU migration. This isn't part of the propaganda, it's merely a correspondent's short report on an actual situation, and it's often somewhat mind blowing. Brexiters will hate the EU even more after listening.

Because such evidence is so scarce I'm posting it as a separate thread from the EU debate one so that everyone gets a chance to hear it. The item's excerpt of the radio program link below starts at 16 mins, 35 secs, and lasts just 5 mins, 50 seconds:

Program Link
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[trex]

It seems to me that most of Brexiters are lashing out about anything and everything. They just want change. They probably don't care about the economy or anything else.

 

[tillson]

It seems to me that most of Brexiters are lashing out about anything and everything. They just want change. They probably don't care about the economy or anything else.

I think there is a lot of truth in the above. I'm not sure that Brexiters don't care about the economy, I think they do. But they can see the risks to the economy don't outweigh the long term risks to the UK as a whole by remaining part of the failing EU and eventually getting dragged down with it.

 

[oldgroaner]

I think there is a lot of truth in the above. I'm not sure that Brexiters don't care about the economy, I think they do. But they can see the risks to the economy don't outweigh the long term risks to the UK as a whole by remaining part of the failing EU and eventually getting dragged down with it.

So your belief is that they prefer instant results rather than have to wait for failure?
Interesting....

 

[oldgroaner]

So Brexit if we are to take Switzerland's case as an example, amounts to
1:Loss of the entire European Market
2: The withdrawal of all Foreign owned businesses manufacturing here to sell to Europe.
Who we Gonna call to fill those gaps?
Ah well, we can wave our little union jacks and strike a heroic pose as we starve I suppose, revelling in our "Control over our own affairs, and our childrens future"
Our best plan then would be to grovel to the Americans, or alternatively teach Mandarin as a main language and go cap in hand to Beijing, wouldn't it?
What a utterly brilliant idea, which proves as Father used to say
"Nothing if foolproof to the Talented Fool"

 

[tillson]

So your belief is that they prefer instant results rather than have to wait for failure?
Interesting....

I'm sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

 

[tillson]

So Brexit if we are to take Switzerland's case as an example, amounts to
1:Loss of the entire European Market
2: The withdrawal of all Foreign owned businesses manufacturing here to sell to Europe.

1 and 2 won't happen. Dave Cameron is just saying these things to frighten you. It's like the Boggey Man when you were a child.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

Thought idea behind tho thread was for some facts.?? We,ve had assumptions and not much else.
Like many things in history we don't know consequences until post the event.
We have had 99% speculation from all the politicians.

 

[oldgroaner]

1 and 2 won't happen. Dave Cameron is just saying these things to frighten you. It's like the Boggey Man when you were a child.

Actually I'm not quoting Cameron, as it said in my post Switzerland has provided us with a perfect example of what will and has happened to them.

 

[oldgroaner]

I'm sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Frankly that doesn't surprise me at all!

 

[oldgroaner]

Thought idea behind tho thread was for some facts.?? We,ve had assumptions and not much else.
Like many things in history we don't know consequences until post the event.
We have had 99% speculation from all the politicians.

The Swiss have provided you with enough facts of their experience surely?

 

[flecc]

Thought idea behind tho thread was for some facts.??

And that's what you got.

The facts were what is happening to the Swiss. It's an example and a warning of what could happen to us if we attempt the same things.

N.B. Crossed with oldgroaner's post.
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[tillson]

Actually I'm not quoting Cameron, as it said in my post Switzerland has provided us with a perfect example of what will and has happened to them.

I don't know if the same will happen to us if we leave the EU and neither do you.

 

[(NoLongerRegistered#15675)]

And that's what you got.

The facts were what is happening to the Swiss. It's an example and a warning of what could happen to us if we attempt the same things.

N.B. Crossed with oldgroaner's post.
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No the facts are simply certain things have happened/ happening in Switzerland. Assuming those occurrnces would repeat themselves under Brexit for UK is sheer speculation.
It might but it might not..nobody knows. That's the only fact..hence the debate and problem deciding.

 

[flecc]

No the facts are simply certain things have happened/ happening in Switzerland. Assuming those occurrnces would repeat themselves under Brexit for UK is sheer speculation.
It might but it might not..nobody knows. That's the only fact..hence the debate and problem deciding.

Not no, yes. The facts are what I stated.

I didn't assume anything, I only said it was an indication of what could happen to us.

As for likelyhood, the Swiss experiences are a strong indicator. And as you Brexiters have said, David Cameron's was unable to get a good deal from the EU countries, another strong factual indicator of how little they are prepared to concede to us. He found out something that was already clear to most of us, the other EU countries are fed up with our lack of co-operation in the EU project and regular demands for special treatment.

Against these factual things, where is there evidence with any strength that we will get a good deal that doesn't leave us worse off? All the factual indicators are negative.
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[lectureral]

Many are rightly asking for facts instead of the inane propaganda that both sides are issuing in the EU debate.
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Thought at first you were referring to "Death From Above"

I do have to laugh at the Brexit mantra of 'getting our sovereignty back' - it quite misunderstands the way the world now works. Our options will always be limited by many agreements, treaties and realpolitik.

It's a bit like marriage - yes, when I was single I could choose to slump in front of the TV or go out with my mates. Now, married with kids, my choices in some ways are more limited. But my married years have been by far the most productive and happy, despite my loss of 'sovereignty'.

 

[flecc]

Thought at first you were referring to "Death From Above"

I do have to laugh at the Brexit mantra of 'getting our sovereignty back' - it quite misunderstands the way the world now works. Our options will always be limited by many agreements, treaties and realpolitik.

It's a bit like marriage - yes, when I was single I could choose to slump in front of the TV or go out with my mates. Now, married with kids, my choices in some ways are more limited. But my married years have been by far the most productive and happy, despite my loss of 'sovereignty'.

A perfect real world example Alistair, we give up some freedoms for the gains in the quality and richness of life that come with association.
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[oldgroaner]

If sovereignty is such an important issue we may as well go back in History to being separate little nations on this little island of ours.
Let's hear it for the Kingdom of Northumbria folks!
What utter nonsense, and no doubt that would work for Germany going back into the little kingdoms it was comprised of?
Why don't we suggest that to them and see what response we get?
The future of Humanity has to be working together to eventually when we "grow up" as sentient beings to having a World State and an end to wars.
The EU is a small step in the right direction, in danger of being derailed by people who are trying to prevent the future happening out of short term view self interest.
No one denies the EU has problems, Lord knows many of them can be laid at our door due to stupid interventions in the middle east, adding to the Instability there.
It would have been possible to get better negotiations in Brussels if we hadn't fielded about 50% of our MEPS who not only were uninterested in doing any work, but actively are hostile to it's mere existence.
And then to add insult to injury their "doings" are it seems deliberately not exposed to the public gaze as they should be.
There is a deafening silence on what they have been up to, hasn't there.
We have in fact been no more than a "Bloody minded minor nuisance" at the European parliament for years, not a fully participating member.
All that successive governments have done have used it as a "Whipping Boy" to cover up their own failures and excesses, and blame it for their inaction.
And the press have acted as their champions, no matter how stupid their actions have been.
And now the Brexit supporters want us to jump ship and take to a lifeboat run by this sordid bunch of fakes and con men?
Better to be disembowelled with a blunt spoon.

 

[oldgroaner]

I don't know if the same will happen to us if we leave the EU and neither do you.

And do you have any reason to step blindly into the unknown? that's like searching for a gas leak with a lit match.
Effective in one sense, but survival is a matter of relying on luck.
It is quite obviously a pointless risk and there is nothing to commend it in the way of positive advantage.
All the so called "options" and "opportunities" are purely speculative and on a completely uncertain time scale too (quite probably appearing too late to prevent economic collapse)
"pie in the sky" about describes it.
Because of immigration we have a solvable problem with population levels, Brexiters insist that we behave like Lemmings instead of seeking a consensus solution, which is the rational thing to do, and in the end will be forced upon us anyway, in or out of the EU.

 

[tillson]

And do you have any reason to step blindly into the unknown? that's like searching for a gas leak with a lit match.
Effective in one sense, but survival is a matter of relying on luck.
It is quite obviously a pointless risk and there is nothing to commend it in the way of positive advantage.
All the so called "options" and "opportunities" are purely speculative and on a completely uncertain time scale too (quite probably appearing too late to prevent economic collapse)
"pie in the sky" about describes it.
Because of immigration we have a solvable problem with population levels, Brexiters insist that we behave like Lemmings instead of seeking a consensus solution, which is the rational thing to do, and in the end will be forced upon us anyway, in or out of the EU.

Both options, Leave or Stay are a step into the unknown. I am saying that you can't predict what will happen if we leave, you can guess but that is all. Your forecast is no more certain than any other prediction.
My guess is that we can maintain a friendly and peaceful relationship with Europe whilst selling to the countries which want our goods and services. Similarly, we can buy goods from those countries which offer something appealing to us. That has happened since the beginning of time and it will continue with or without the EU, history is on our side.

The EU stance seems to indicate that friendship, cooperation and trade will be stamped out, extinguished and not be allowed to flourish unless we surrender increasing amounts of our independence to this faceless system which no one seems to identify with. It does not have to be like that, we can be friends with the EU after Brexit. Of course, if another EU nation repays our friendship and help with acts of open hostility and aggression in the form of an invasion (as seems to be prophesised by the IN Campaign), we have our Trident missile system with which to defend ourselves.