Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

Remainer Brexit scares and reality

The Remain campaign predicted a punishment budget and the continued premiership of David Cameron.

www.politico.eu

Perhaps so Oyster, but the scenario as predicted by many has simply not materialised. Total exaggeration by both sides, from the bus to Project Fear... Ridiculous campaigning by both sides.
Let's face it, chap writing earlier linked article was actually in charge (aledgedly) of Remain campaign.
The whole population has been continually lied to by everyone involved. Are EU any better?? I don't think so.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

Remainer Brexit scares and reality

The Remain campaign predicted a punishment budget and the continued premiership of David Cameron.

www.politico.eu

Remainer Brexit scares and reality

The Remain campaign predicted a punishment budget and the continued premiership of David Cameron.

www.politico.eu

Perhaps so Oyster, but the scenario as predicted by many has simply not materialised. Total exaggeration by both sides, from the bus to Project Fear... Ridiculous campaigning by both sides.
Let's face it, chap writing linked article was actually in charge (aledgedly) of Remain campaign.
The whole population has been continually lied to by everyone involved. Are EU any better?? I don't think so.

You're in denial, my friend. Not only of the past, the conservatives catastrophic record on the pandemic, economy; festering corruption, donor issues. Also the future, boe's conservative estimate of 4% inflation, affordability crisis, ships avoiding our container ports due to logistic issues caused by brexit etc.
With respect, in many ways your denial explain why we are where we are. With an electorate that refuse to acknowledge what's really happening. The economic catastrophe will have to get much worse before that change.

 

[Zlatan]

You're in denial, my friend. Not only of the past, the conservatives catastrophic record on the pandemic, economy; festering corruption, donor issues. Also the future, boe's conservative estimate of 4% inflation, affordability crisis, ships avoiding our container ports due to logistic issues caused by brexit etc.
With respect, in many ways your denial explain why we are where we are. With an electorate that refuse to acknowledge what's really happening. The economic catastrophe will have to get much worse before that change.

You might be right Jonathon. Thing is, even if so, exactly what are you doing about the impending doom. Voting for Starmer? Becoming a prepper, sitting on m5, revolting or even starting a movement/party. Think I, ll stay in denial until I can actually do something. You can't even vote for an alternative. There isn't one..last I heard Starmer was seen on m25 with a tube of superglue. Corbyn was paying bail on his brother.
So good luck with crusade. I, ll be sailing or biking.
Seems to me the idiotic anti vaxers might have one good point. Powers that be want us scared. Your post indicates a good level of at least apprehension. 4% inflation. No Turkeys at Christmas.How will we cope..???
And on another point, I, ve had a big order (for me) with a technology firm in China. (price half what I was paying for stuff from Slovenia)... 45 day delay... Factory no power. Fuel shortage. Don't think we can blame Tories for everything.

 

[oldgroaner]

My morning read has started with this:

Coronavirus: lessons learned to date
Executive Summary

Covid-19 has been the biggest crisis our country has faced in generations, and the greatest peacetime challenge in a century. It has disrupted our lives to an extent few predicted; separated friends and families; closed businesses and damaged livelihoods; and, most tragically of all, it has been associated with the deaths of over 150,000 people in the UK and nearly 5 million people worldwide to date.1

The United Kingdom is not alone in having suffered badly because of covid-19 and the pandemic is far from over. Comparing the experience of different countries is not straightforward: covid-related deaths are recorded in varying ways. The effect of the pandemic on particular countries has been different at different times—for example some countries that fared better than others in the early months of the pandemic have subsequently experienced more fatalities.2 But in 2020 the UK did significantly worse in terms of covid deaths than many countries—especially compared to those in East Asia even though they were much closer geographically to where the virus first appeared.3 The scale of this early loss requires us to ask why the UK was affected worse than others.

Conversely the success of the vaccine programme—one of the most effective in Europe and, for a country of our size one of the most effective in the world—shows that positive as well as negative lessons should be taken from our handling of the pandemic. All learning needs to happen rapidly because of the likelihood of future pandemics which is why we are producing this Report now. Its purpose is not to point fingers of blame but ensure an accurate understanding of both successes and failures to date so that crucial lessons can be learned for the future.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5802/cmselect/cmsctech/92/9204.htm

"What do you make of that, Mr Spock?"
"It's Bullshit Captain, but not as we know it!"

 

[oldgroaner]

To be fair he, s been on duty and faced more than any PM since ww2

That was good and original
But the part that were good weren't original
And the parts that were original weren't good.
1: He avoids any Duty like the plague (even though the idiot infected himself with it)
2: He avoids facing anything other than getting his leg over with any wench daft enough to fall for his money and connections

Basically he is the highest evolved form of parasite nature has achieved so far.
For his criminal neglect alone, which led to the deaths of thousands, never mind swindling he should be jailed for life.

We must find a vaccine to counter the stupidity that got him into power and makes excuses for an 100% villain.

 

[oldgroaner]

To quote you... Utter rot, and you know it. You complained about the wait, you complained about timing and you complained about delay for your second... There isn't anything I can think of you haven't complained about.
I suppose the clue is in your handle... Old Groaner... You live up to it...

Thank you

 

[oldgroaner]

Joke?

Matt Hancock appointed UN special envoy to help Covid recovery in Africa Former health secretary’s role comes as MPs release damning report into UK’s pandemic response

 

[oyster]

Joke?

Matt Hancock appointed UN special envoy to help Covid recovery in Africa Former health secretary’s role comes as MPs release damning report into UK’s pandemic response

Has it been approved by the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments?

 

[Zlatan]

That was good and original
But the part that were good weren't original
And the parts that were original weren't good.
1: He avoids any Duty like the plague (even though the idiot infected himself with it)
2: He avoids facing anything other than getting his leg over with any wench daft enough to fall for his money and connections

Basically he is the highest evolved form of parasite nature has achieved so far.
For his criminal neglect alone, which led to the deaths of thousands, never mind swindling he should be jailed for life.

We must find a vaccine to counter the stupidity that got him into power and makes excuses for an 100% villain.

Well at least while you are insulting BJ you are leaving everybody else alone.

You are just like many football supporters. Always know better than manager, insult him continually, bay for his sacking and then when he, s gone... Nobody to replace him.
Yep, by all means have a contract taken out on BJ, you could justify it in your mind with him being your impression of lowest form of human life.. Then you get Gove or Smog or Hancock..because you sure as hell won't get Starmer. He, s glued himself to m25.

Boris has gone through divorce, marriage, birth of kids, covid, Brexit, fuel shortage and God knows what else. I wonder how Corbyn or Abot would have coped.
As usual not a word about an alternative.. Leader or party. Just criticism, shouting insults and panic. Your handle should be Corporal Jones...
Amazing isn't it. Covid handled so badly but not one of us as succumbed to it.
What was Fergusons Hyperbole, 500,000 dead in UK.... Don't panic... Don't panic.

 

[Zlatan]

Joke?

Matt Hancock appointed UN special envoy to help Covid recovery in Africa Former health secretary’s role comes as MPs release damning report into UK’s pandemic response

The report that also highlighted UK's World leading vaccine development and roll out. But miss that bit out, its too positive. Just concentrate on all the bad bits as BBC, /media has programmed you to.
And, if you took trouble to actually read report, or listen properly yesterday evening... The criticism of our MPs was for following scientific advice. Apparently they should have questioned the scientists more when they were informed masks were of little (proven) use. The Government should have ignored advice when it was wrong but listened when it was correct. (that was Rory Bremner's conclusion last night, or I think it was Rory Bremner)
Oh, and Cummings stirring again. Our toy PM???
But Dominic Cummings the new Messiah... You couldn't make it up.

 

[oldgroaner]

The report that also highlighted UK's World leading vaccine development and roll out. But miss that bit out, its too positive. Just concentrate on all the bad bits as BBC, /media has programmed you to.
And, if you took trouble to actually read report, or listen properly yesterday evening... The criticism of our MPs was for following scientific advice. Apparently they should have questioned the scientists more when they were informed masks were of little (proven) use. The Government should have ignored advice when it was wrong but listened when it was correct. (that was Rory Bremner's conclusion last night, or I think it was Rory Bremner)
Oh, and Cummings stirring again. Our toy PM???
But Dominic Cummings the new Messiah... You couldn't make it up.

Frankly it wasn't the worlds best vaccine roll out, it was a numbers gamble to cover up the criminal negligence that led to many thousands of unnecessary deaths..
I'm not in the habit of praising mass murderers when they take risks like extending the interval between doses the makers stipulates.
Also reneging on agreements to share the vaccine with the EU
Accepting how many million doses 12 was it? and sending none in return.
You like this government because you have the same moral values
The excuse every time for inaction was "Scientists advise Ministers decide"
And frankly they chose to listen to some dodgy scientists like the one against lockdowns
that intervened with Sunak egging him on to encourage the "Eat out to help out" debacle by insisting the risk was small
Only idiots do that, and idiots praise the people that did that

Good comedy line you have there
"You couldn't make it up."
But you do, and every time too, accompanied be a full blown sermon

 

[Jesus H Christ]

That was good and original
But the part that were good weren't original
And the parts that were original weren't good.
1: He avoids any Duty like the plague (even though the idiot infected himself with it)
2: He avoids facing anything other than getting his leg over with any wench daft enough to fall for his money and connections

Basically he is the highest evolved form of parasite nature has achieved so far.
For his criminal neglect alone, which led to the deaths of thousands, never mind swindling he should be jailed for life.

We must find a vaccine to counter the stupidity that got him into power and makes excuses for an 100% villain.

I prefer the term Fuck_Jar to wench. Fuck_Jar is a more satisfactory term for describing the contract that exists between Johnson and whoever it may be that he is emptying himself into. Fuck_Jar is also a pleasing word to speak. “Fuck_Jar. “

 

[Zlatan]

Frankly it wasn't the worlds best vaccine roll out, it was a numbers gamble to cover up the criminal negligence that led to many thousands of unnecessary deaths..
I'm not in the habit of praising mass murderers when they take risks like extending the interval between doses the makers stipulates.
Also reneging on agreements to share the vaccine with the EU
Accepting how many million doses 12 was it? and sending none in return.
You like this government because you have the same moral values
The excuse every time for inaction was "Scientists advise Ministers decide"
And frankly they chose to listen to some dodgy scientists like the one against lockdowns
that intervened with Sunak egging him on to encourage the "Eat out to help out" debacle by insisting the risk was small
Only idiots do that, and idiots praise the people that did that

Good comedy line you have there
"You couldn't make it up."
But you do, and every time too, accompanied be a full blown sermon

Yes, of course the report was wrong, obviously. The vaccine development and roll out was crap.
But the bits where critical were correct no doubt. Unbleuevable OG... But keep it up. You are like my 5 Yr old grandson... He makes himself sad and angry thinking entire world, especially his mum, is against him and wrong. He ends up being only one upset, crying and missing out. Keep it up OG, you are the one sad and upset... Not me. I, m quite happy with things. Not perfect, but not bad.. And as normal not one iota about how you can improve anything. Just keep moaning and looking on bleak side OG.
Yep, BJ is a poor specimen of an MP, unfortunately he's about best we have at moment. Tough luck OG. You could always glue your hands to M180, feckers would just p! ss on you in Hull tho.

And before you start repeating the nonsense our death rate is amongst worst in world... We are currently 25th in World, agreed many tiny countries worse but putting figures in perspective...
We are almost exactly 10% worse than France yet 10% better than Italy. (we have around 2000 deaths per million for covid)
And Italy has achieved that rate totally without Tories or Johnson. Then have a look at some other figures. (Bosnia?)

And in the eat out to help out... I didn't. I stayed home.. I didn't go to Cheltenham race course either. Whereas you did I suppose and ate out every night.. Doubt it somehow.
You want wrapping in cotton wool and every decision taken off you. For goodness sake OG, take some responsibility. People who need telling don't go to Cheltenham, don't go to pubs, don't go to swimming baths are morons and would probably ignore the advice anyway. Look how many anti vaxers we have. Suppose that's Boris' fault too.

 

[Danidl]

The report that also highlighted UK's World leading vaccine development and roll out. But miss that bit out, its too positive. Just concentrate on all the bad bits as BBC, /media has programmed you to.
And, if you took trouble to actually read report, or listen properly yesterday evening... The criticism of our MPs was for following scientific advice. Apparently they should have questioned the scientists more when they were informed masks were of little (proven) use. The Government should have ignored advice when it was wrong but listened when it was correct. (that was Rory Bremner's conclusion last night, or I think it was Rory Bremner)
Oh, and Cummings stirring again. Our toy PM???
But Dominic Cummings the new Messiah... You couldn't make it up.

Zlatan... This is cloud cuckoo land stuff. The first vaccine in the western world was the Pfizer. The UK government started using it before it was fully certified, and basically took the liability on themselves That was in fairness a gutsy move. Later the Astra Zenaca came later ,and the same legal situation . Now the AZ was potentially a game changer , but that was blown by unilaterally altering the jab interval. Now all the the idiotic premature opening sessions ,caused multiple unnecessary death spirals. ..
.These were not Science Advice based . ..or if they were it was the social sciences ,not the laboratory sciences. Now all of these events are listed in the postings on this website over the last 18 months , so there is no revisionist thinking here.
Do you understand the concept of SPIN?. ... That is what the discussion on your media is being about. . Not substance. The BMJ on a number of occasions attempted to redirect Government pronouncements. They are the authoritive voice of British Medical Science.

 

[Zlatan]

Zlatan... This is cloud cuckoo land stuff. The first vaccine in the western world was the Pfizer. The UK government started using it before it was fully certified, and basically took the liability on themselves That was in fairness a gutsy move. Later the Astra Zenaca came later ,and the same legal situation . Now the AZ was potentially a game changer , but that was blown by unilaterally altering the jab interval. Now all the the idiotic premature opening sessions ,caused multiple unnecessary death spirals. ..
.These were not Science Advice based . ..or if they were it was the social sciences ,not the laboratory sciences. Now all of these events are listed in the postings on this website over the last 18 months , so there is no revisionist thinking here.
Do you understand the concept of SPIN?. ... That is what the discussion on your media is being about. . Not substance. The BMJ on a number of occasions attempted to redirect Government pronouncements. They are the authoritive voice of British Medical Science.

Yep, the report is suspect. Tell OG..Have you read the spin report or watched last night's report about the "report". The one with major contributions from Dominic Cummings.. That font of all things precise and factual... Well apart from his eye test drive.
I agree, the report isn't worth the paper it's written on, The good or the bad. (or even the ugly) Well said.

 

[Zlatan]

But before you write report off as spin, I suggest you read it Danidl.
This is a few extracts on vaccines.

 

[Zlatan]

But basically, the bit you see as spin. They should have consulted yourself and OG..


Writers of report know nothing at side of yourself and OG, and they are obviously living in cloud cuckoo land.
If you can't find report I, ll post a link.. I, ve spent about 5 hours reading it... You two know what it says already. (It's 147 pages long)
Precis so far.
Government could have done better but mistakes were understandable. Should be more liason between ministers and scientists and ministers should have more scope to challenge scientists.
Vaccine roll out was exceptional and world leading.
The negative spin I witnessed last night (Emily Matis especially) is not a major general point I, ve found in report.
Point of report is not to apportion blame but to offer guidance for future, which to my mind is not living in cloud cuckoo land at all. Its exactly what we should be doing.

 

[Danidl]

But basically, the bit you see as spin. They should have consulted yourself and OG..
View attachment 44400

Writers of report know nothing at side of yourself and OG, and they are obviously living in cloud cuckoo land.
If you can't find report I, ll post a link.. I, ve spent about 5 hours reading it... You two know what it says already. (It's 147 pages long)
Precis so far.
Government could have done better but mistakes were understandable. Should be more liason between ministers and scientists and ministers should have more scope to challenge scientists.
Vaccine roll out was exceptional and world leading.
The negative spin I witnessed last night (Emily Matis especially) is not a major general point I, ve found in report.
Point of report is not to apportion blame but to offer guidance for future, which to my mind is not living in cloud cuckoo land at all. Its exactly what we should be doing.

But it was the Germans who did the Pfizer and was the one in circulation a full 6 weeks Before the AZ. So bluntly it was not the UKs response ,it was the German ) EU/ Turkish immigrants in Biontech. Note this is not underestimating the value of the AZ, but it really was a bit player . Now I could and do read the two last sentences in the piece completely different than how you might ..rather than being an endorsement, they are a stinging rebuke... Of the" Lessons will be learnt" type , rather than" we already knew what to do but we choose different. "

 

[Zlatan]

But it was the Germans who did the Pfizer and was the one in circulation a full 6 weeks Before the AZ. So bluntly it was not the UKs response ,it was the German ) EU/ Turkish immigrants in Biontech. Note this is not underestimating the value of the AZ, but it really was a bit player . Now I could and do read the two last sentences in the piece completely different than how you might ..rather than being an endorsement, they are a stinging rebuke... Of the" Lessons will be learnt" type , rather than" we already knew what to do but we choose different. "

Whichever way you look at it the UK vaccine response has been a bright light in a sea of flickering candles. In many ways its covered up what was a poor response in other areas. (read the section in T and T and Cobra)
It became evident to all that on high levels of infection our Tand T simply could not cope... And had we been reliant on it this year (ie no vaccine) we would still be in lockdown.
To recognise faults in the system, which there undoubtedly are, you must highlight the good points. Dismissing everything, as you tend to do, actually gets us nowhere.
The systems put in place for funding, the procurement, the cooperation between NHS, central govt and local government along with good use of volunteers has been a quality not repeated in other areas.
The report is well worth reading. It does criticise but does not personalise. It's actually far better than I had imagined. Cobra has proven almost non functional. Main reason, odd security measures.
Before we all start apportioning blame and throwing mud we really must look at the systems, networks, communications and reasons some things didn't work.
Our institutional method of blaming an individual just won't work. Our failures over covid predate this government, and our succeses are not solely down to one or two individuals... But it does seem to me Chris Witty and Patrick Valance have been instrumental in much of our success. -( as as Sarah Gilbert)
Just blaming Boris is utterly ridiculous, pointless and will do no benefit for the future.
If the public investigation is similar to this report, I, d support it. If its a which hunt to make Dominic Cummings, OG and Starmer happy forget it. We, ll learn nothing by pinning blame on an individual, which historically is exactly what us English like to do.
Blame Guy Fawkes, Blame Hitler or Chamberlain. Don't blame the system. We must look at systematic failures and successes. The vaccine was a success. Saying otherwise is silly.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

Ireland's deputy PM has warned governments doing trade deals with the UK that it is a nation that "doesn't necessarily keep its word".

I’m afraid that I find myself agreeing with him. What a sorry state of affairs.