Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

When will you ever learn!

The EU is not a government of a country having a foreign policy, neither is it a country so it's not their job. Member countries do have foreign policies, it is their job. Therefore almost your entire post (rant) is irrelevant, inappropriate and unnecessary.

The task of the EU is to work towards the harmonisation of member states so that they can eventually merge into a single country of Europe, which then can have a foreign policy. Meanwhile the EU gets on with its job of achieving compatibility.

That includes such subjects as large as transport and Europe wide farm subsidies or as small as electrical connectors and pedelec specifications.

The Romans once achieved a degree of borderless unity among less than half of Europe's countries, but to do that they used extreme force and took several centuries to do it.

Very far from being pointless, following its very sensible policies the EU has achieved 27 borderless countries across Europe living in peace together, which were until recently a diverse group of nations intent on destroying each other during over 1000 years. And the EU achieved that in far less than half a century, which is close to being a miracle.
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You attribute peace in Europe to EU then openly admit NATO has been responsible for its defence.
You see EU as responsible, I suspect NATO along with France's, UK's, German's, Spain's and, Italy's considerable spending on military... Just allows fools to think EU has kept peace. Its done no such thing. Its done nothing apart from talk and pass rules about plugs and hoovers.
If EU has been responsible for peace in Europe please explain why every single EU country spends an average of 1.7% of GPD on defence. (apart from Ireland which spends under 1%) and all that is on top of NATO...
But EU talking about peace, doing nothing worldwide or even in Europe towards keeping peace and even without any defence budget or a Force of any kind has kept peace in Europe. Utter rubbish.
If it was case we could just stop all defence budgets, send NATO home, disband all national forces and thank Brussels for keeping our way of lives safe.. Good luck Flecc.

 

[oldgroaner]

You attribute peace in Europe to EU then openly admit NATO has been responsible for its defence.
You see EU as responsible, I suspect NATO along with France's, UK's, German's, Spain's and, Italy's considerable spending on military... Just allows fools to think EU has kept peace. Its done no such thing. Its done nothing apart from talk and pass rules about plugs and hoovers.
If EU has been responsible for peace in Europe please explain why every single EU country spends an average of 1.7% of GPD on defence. (apart from Ireland which spends under 1%) and all that is on top of NATO...
But EU talking about peace, doing nothing worldwide or even in Europe towards keeping peace and even without any defence budget or a Force of any kind has kept peace in Europe. Utter rubbish.
If it was case we could just stop all defence budgets, send NATO home, disband all national forces and thank Brussels for keeping our way of lives safe.. Good luck Flecc.

As usual the point is being missed the EU's aim was to keep the peace within it's member states, and in that has been largely successful

 

[flecc]

You attribute peace in Europe to EU then openly admit NATO has been responsible for its defence.
You see EU as responsible, I suspect NATO along with France's, UK's, German's, Spain's and, Italy's considerable spending on military... Just allows fools to think EU has kept peace. Its done no such thing. Its done nothing apart from talk and pass rules about plugs and hoovers.
If EU has been responsible for peace in Europe please explain why every single EU country spends an average of 1.7% of GPD on defence. (apart from Ireland which spends under 1%) and all that is on top of NATO...
But EU talking about peace, doing nothing worldwide or even in Europe towards keeping peace and even without any defence budget or a Force of any kind has kept peace in Europe. Utter rubbish.
If it was case we could just stop all defence budgets, send NATO home, disband all national forces and thank Brussels for keeping our way of lives safe.. Good luck Flecc.

Read what I posted. Achieving peace between the EU member countries which had centuries of previous warring with each other.

Peace with external countries is not an EU matter, their function is an internal one. Peace with outsiders is for member countries to determine and that's why they have their own defence budgets according to the need they perceive.

The only utter rubbish in the paragraph below is what you posted:

"But EU talking about peace, doing nothing worldwide or even in Europe towards keeping peace and even without any defence budget or a Force of any kind has kept peace in Europe. Utter rubbish."

Let me try once more in the hope it finally sinks in:

The EU is not a country, the EU is not a nation. The EU has no land or properties of its own. The EU has no population of its own.

It is a temporary entity with a precisely defined objective of European unity.

As such it cannot be physically attacked or damaged. As such it cannot physically attack or damage any country

Ergo, the EU cannot have an army, let alone attack any country. The EU's policy setting body, the European Commission, can only suggest that the member countries combine forces to form a European Army.

The Commission has suggested that more than once, but if the member countries don't opt to do anything beyond joint exercises and co-operation, there's nothing the Commission do, can since the EU's objectives are voluntary. The member countries already spend a lot on NATO exercises so understandably don't want to duplicate that.

As I posted earlier, get rid of NATO and the member countries will probably agree to their own European army.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Read what I posted. Achieving peace between the EU member countries which had centuries of previous warring with each other.

Peace with external countries is not an EU matter, their function is an internal one. Peace with outsiders is for member countries to determine and that's why they have their own defence budgets according to the need they perceive.

The only utter rubbish in the paragraph below is what you posted:

"But EU talking about peace, doing nothing worldwide or even in Europe towards keeping peace and even without any defence budget or a Force of any kind has kept peace in Europe. Utter rubbish."

Let me try once more in the hope it finally sinks in:

The EU is not a country, the EU is not a nation. The EU has no land or properties of its own. The EU has no population of its own.

It is a temporary entity with a precisely defined objective of European unity.

As such it cannot be physically attacked or damaged. As such it cannot physically attack or damage any country

Ergo, the EU cannot have an army, let alone attack any country. The EU's policy setting body, the European Commission, can only suggest that the member countries combine forces to form a European Army.

The Commission has suggested that more than once, but if the member countries don't opt to do anything beyond joint exercises and co-operation, there's nothing the Commission do, can since the EU's objectives are voluntary. The member countries already spend a lot on NATO exercises so understandably don't want to duplicate that.

As I posted earlier, get rid of NATO and the member countries will probably agree to their own European army.
.

Agreed, the EU has suggested countries don't go to war. Neighbours spending, history, NATO and nuclear arms have kept it.
Ridiculous to say EU has kept peace. They don't have any capability, do not spend on defence and their strongest aspect... Requesting countries do certain things, which we all know we all ignore.
This is what has kept peace in Europe.


This does not include US spending..

What on earth is point of all this trillions of dollars/euros /pounds when all countries need to do is follow instructions from Brussels. Stop being naive Flecc. Yes, EU is responsible for some good things but suggesting EU has maintauned peace without spending a penny on doing so is ridiculous.
What on earth is Australia spending 100 billion dollars on Nuclear search and destroy subs for when all we have to do is ask EU to write to China.
And Putin has not sent his tanks rolling through East Germany not because NATO is sat watching but because EU have discussed it in Brussels over coffee and croissants.
Let's just send NATO home, stop defence budgets, sink all the aircraft carriers, ground the F35s, the Euro fighters send the Helicopter gunships home from central Europe and get all the soldiers to drive tankers instead... EU has asked Putin to be a good boy. I can't believe anyone with your undoubted intelligence can be so naive and trusting... Peace has been kept because it would cost the aggressor more than he seeks to gain. That's why we have kept peace in Europe, not because EU through some magical ability has managed to change human nature.
Let's face it, the EU can not even enforce the most mundane of requests.
I suspect you project your faith both in human nature and the EU onto all other people. Humans are warlike by nature. If advantage could be gained by marching through Poland countries would do so. Preparing for war, spending on defence removes that advantage. EU does nothing toward that. Nothing.

 

[oldgroaner]

"Boris Johnson has given the go-ahead to ministers to relax UK immigration rules to allow more foreign truck drivers into the country to ease shortages at petrol stations and wider economic disruption. "
Ft.com

 

[Woosh]

This is what has kept peace in Europe.

do you really believe more weapons keep peace?
Look at history. More defense spending = more risks of war, not less.

 

[oldgroaner]

Agreed, the EU has suggested countries don't go to war. Neighbours spending, history, NATO and nuclear arms have kept it.
Ridiculous to say EU has kept peace. They don't have any capability, do not spend on defence and their strongest aspect... Requesting countries do certain things, which we all know we all ignore.
This is what has kept peace in Europe.
View attachment 44157

This does not include US spending..

What on earth is point of all this trillions of dollars/euros /pounds when all countries need to do is follow instructions from Brussels. Stop being naive Flecc. Yes, EU is responsible for some good things but suggesting EU has maintauned peace without spending a penny on doing so is ridiculous.
What on earth is Australia spending 100 billion dollars on Nuclear search and destroy subs for when all we have to do is ask EU to write to China.
And Putin has not sent his tanks rolling through East Germany not because NATO is sat watching but because EU have discussed it in Brussels over coffee and croissants.
Let's just send NATO home, stop defence budgets, sink all the aircraft carriers, ground the F35s, the Euro fighters send the Helicopter gunships home from central Europe and get all the soldiers to drive tankers instead... EU has asked Putin to be a good boy. I can't believe anyone with your undoubted intelligence can be so naive and trusting... Peace has been kept because it would cost the aggressor more than he seeks to gain. That's why we have kept peace in Europe, not because EU through some magical ability has managed to change human nature.

Well done!
Starting with this

You ended up as usual with this

This is the result of not taking any notice of any ideas that are not yours.

 

[Zlatan]

do you really believe more weapons keep peace?
Look at history. More defense spending = more risks of war, not less.

That's a very risky argument to make. We have enjoyed peace in Europe since 1945...I believe about the longest period we have ever enjoyed.. Would you want to be the country that went first in throwing its arms away... I certainly wouldn't. I, ll carry on hoping that having threat of a response prevents it happening. What's the adage... Prepare for war if you want peace. Carry a big stick and speak softly...

 

[Zlatan]

Ha

Well done!
Starting with this

You ended up as usual with this

This is the result of not taking any notice of any ideas that are not yours.

Habitually offensive with nothing to add to argument. Normal for you OG.
Do you want Europe to stop spending on defence to rely on the EU message or not.
Yep, it's great having high ideals as no doubt we all have. Can you guarantee Russia, North Korea, Taliban, Isis, China have similar morals... Guarantee it OG.
No, I didn't think you could. So we rely on having a retaliatory capability to prevent(well attempt to) stop it happening.
World isn't full of pacifists. The US is not the enemy. They have tried to keep peace, failed in many places, caused mayhem in some attempts, but generally Europe has benefitted to tune of 75 years of peace because of it.
Throw it away at your peril. The EU in its current form could not stop a riot in a nursery school,even if they tried. It would be someone else's responsibility. The individual country's or NATO's. EU is useless.

 

[Nev]

The Torygraph is reporting that Boris is about to relax visa rules for HGV drivers has anyone heard anything? Can't see this going down well with blue passport clutching, fat necked brexit dads. They will be shouting they are all coming over here stealing our jobs again, damn shame the Brits don't want these jobs due to the pay and tough conditions.

 

[Woosh]

Prepare for war if you want peace.

That's what the arm dealers and our own arm manufacturers tell you.
In reality, preparing for war will push us more toward conflicts, not less.

 

[flecc]

Ridiculous to say EU has kept peace. They don't have any capability, do not spend on defence and their strongest aspect... Requesting countries do certain things, which we all know we all ignore.

You simply cannot get it can you?

It's the EU melding together the 27 countries in a borderless partnership that has kept the internal peace in Europe. How can they go to war against each other when they have open borders and often cross them to work with each other in each other's countries?

Your notion that each countries arms have kept peace in Europe is ludicrous!

Are you saying Germany hasn't attacked France because they are frightened of the French defence forces?

The EU member countries don't war with each other because they no longer want to, they are a family. Like all families the members quarrel with each other, but they wouldn't dream of physically harming each other. They sort out their differences with chat.

That is what the EU has achieved, peace among 27 countries of Europe. Nothing else has ever achieved that.
.

 

[Zlatan]

That's what the arm dealers and our own arm manufacturers tell you.
In reality, preparing for war will push us more toward conflicts, not less.

Well that hasn't happened in last 75 years Woosh.. But don't try and convince me. Tell Australia, every European country, NATO, America, China etc etc.
Are there any countries that don't spend on defence?
Its so easy to sit here and pontificate about how we don't need arms, nuclear weapons, armies, Submarines, Warplanes etc etc yet enjoy all the freedoms their existence has given us.
But, you could be right. Trouble is what if you aren't.
I wonder what folk in Taiwan think? They are currently training for Guerilla warfare...???

 

[Zlatan]

You simply cannot get it can you?

It's the EU melding together the 27 countries in a borderless partnership that has kept the internal peace in Europe. How can they go to war against each other when they have open borders and often cross them to work with each other in each other's countries?

Your notion that each countries arms have kept peace in Europe is ludicrous!

Are you saying Germany hasn't attacked France because they are frightened of the French defence forces?

The EU member countries don't war with each other because they no longer want to, they are a family. Like all families the members quarrel with each other, but they wouldn't dream of physically harming each other. They sort out their differences with chat.

That is what the EU has achieved, peace among 27 countries of Europe. Nothing else has ever achieved that.
.

No, it's you being ridiculous saying Germany hasn't attacked France because they are in EU.
USSR wasn't in EU and didn't attack Germany?? Why not? Because it was worried EU might discuss it at Brussels.
We aren't in EU are we going to invade France? Of course not.
EU has done nothing toward European peace. It hasn't the power. Yes, it might give some country ability to talk but that's the case between none EU countries.
There isn't a shred of concrete evidence backing up your argument. Pure supposition and coincidence. Europe hasn't had a major war since EU formed. That does not mean for a moment you can ascribe the 2 as cause and effect. (And by the way the EU did nothing about Falklands war)
Putting the reason of Europe's peace down to EU is extremely dangerous. We miss the real reasons at our peril.
The one thing that History has shown us is that agreements and pacts go out the window when strife comes through the door.
Only thing that stops war is aggressor believing he will lose or the gains are not worth the losses. Fact.
How on Earth does EU contribute to that, either between European countries or further afield.

 

[flecc]

The US is not the enemy. They have tried to keep peace, failed in many places, caused mayhem in some attempts, but generally Europe has benefitted to tune of 75 years of peace because of it.

Now you are being utterly stupid.

Europe's 75 years of peace have been entirely due to the European Unity movement. That is why it was started, to achieve that stated objective. It started with the European Coal and Steel Community, developed into the EEC which we joined and then further developed into the EU, becoming a family of 27 nations who have no desire to fight each other. The USA played absolutely no part in that internal peace.

The USA has done little other than wage war from 1945 on, only too eager to create warring alliances like NATO and all too often involving European countries in it's petty fights against Communism, against various Middle Eastern, South and Central American and even African countries. China is the next fight they are trying to pick.
.

 

[flecc]

No, it's you being ridiculous saying Germany hasn't attacked France because they are in EU.
USSR wasn't in EU and didn't attack Germany?? Why not? Because it was worried EU might discuss it at Brussels.

My posting has been entirely about peace within the EU countries of Europe, achieved only by the EU. Russia is not an EU country. And as I posted international peace is nothing to do with the EU, their function is entirely within the sphere of the 27 member countries.

There is nothing further to discuss while you are being so deliberately perverse.
.

 

[Woosh]

I wonder what folk in Taiwan think? They are currently training for Guerilla warfare...???

There is no point to train for a guerilla resistance.
Taiwan is part of China. Same people, same language, same history.
It is an autonomous region at present but it will eventually be part of China again.
Half of the Taiwanese don't see it as a problem.
I doubt that Japan, South Korea or Australia are going to commit their troops if China invades Taiwan.
The USA will impose sanctions but can't or won't do anymore than when Russia took back Crimea.

 

[Zlatan]

There is no point to train for a guerilla resistance.
Taiwan is part of China. Same people, same language, same history.
It is an autonomous region at present but it will eventually be part of China again.
Half of the Taiwanese don't see it as a problem.
I doubt that Japan, South Korea or Australia are going to commit their troops if China invades Taiwan.
The USA will impose sanctions but can't or won't do anymore than when Russia took back Crimea.

The Taiwanese think differently.
Flecc
How come Andorra and Iceland have managed to avoid war?
And now we are not in EU are we any more likely to go to war with Germany? (again?)
Utter rubbish.

 

[Danidl]

You attribute peace in Europe to EU then openly admit NATO has been responsible for its defence.
You see EU as responsible, I suspect NATO along with France's, UK's, German's, Spain's and, Italy's considerable spending on military... Just allows fools to think EU has kept peace. Its done no such thing. Its done nothing apart from talk and pass rules about plugs and hoovers.
If EU has been responsible for peace in Europe please explain why every single EU country spends an average of 1.7% of GPD on defence. (apart from Ireland which spends under 1%) and all that is on top of NATO...
But EU talking about peace, doing nothing worldwide or even in Europe towards keeping peace and even without any defence budget or a Force of any kind has kept peace in Europe. Utter rubbish.
If it was case we could just stop all defence budgets, send NATO home, disband all national forces and thank Brussels for keeping our way of lives safe.. Good luck Flecc.

Zlatan... There are two types of threat... For 2000 years or more it has been intra European faction fighting. The last big one ending in 1945. There has been no Wars between EEC ir EU members since. . That is an accomplishment and fleccs comments.
There are other threats .. external actors , and in the case of Europe that has been the USSR between 1946 and about 1990 . OTAN or as the Anglos call it NATO was constructed to contain that threat. And it was a real threat. Now the defence of Europe by NATO actually involved the US military Dropping Nuclear weapons in Northern Germany , to counter massive USSR tank deployment through Luneburg. So in order to protect the USA and the UK and maybe France and Spain,Italy anything from Hamburg, to Hannover would be wiped out. For some reason, the Germans find that distasteful.
Since that has not happened, we can say we have had peace in Europe due to NATO..or perhaps the Russians did not really want to invade. Why would they want to?.

 

[Danidl]

". Peace has been kept because it would cost the aggressor more than he seeks to gain. That's why we have kept peace in Europe, not because EU through some magical ability has managed to change human nature."
Again something we can agree on. Now what would have been the gains for a USSR in attacking Europe. They wished to trade oil for grain. They would have wished to use some of the Wests technical and agricultural competence..you don't get those by invasion. No the Russians were being forced into an arms race by a highly belligerent USA. They therefore had to transfer resources from what would have been economic development into military assets. Remember Star Wars?. The ideological imperative for the Soviets to export their brand of socialism had died off and improving their own lives was what they wanted.