Brexit, for once some facts.

[OxygenJames]

Trouble is tho OJ employees will pay whatever absolute minimum is, to maximise their profits. With high unemployment and hard times that can be very low. At better times employers have to offer better wages to attract employees.
The rate is not determined by what employers should or could pay its determined by minimum they can get away with. Rather like the price we sell things at, its nothing to do with the value its what the market will stand but in reverse. Workers need protection, otherwise employers would pay next to nothing, when they can.

The problem is - in practice 'worker's protection' soon turns out to do the opposite - stifles enterprise and forces businesses to leave the area. Just look at all the places they've brought in minimum wages - this is always the result - less jobs for the poorest in society.

 

[flecc]

thousands of workers can never be considered financially profitable. (care workers, nurses etc etc) How do we set their wages? Shouldnt we be discussing fair pay, a decent standard of living, good working conditions, security and good work life balance rather than minimum wage?- - - - How do we establish fair pay for fire service? Market forces?

The two are not mutually exclusive, both those social factors and market forces apply. In all cases there's the fundamental market force of what a person is prepared to do in relation to what they expect in reward for doing it.
.

 

[Danidl]

The problem is - in practice 'worker's protection' soon turns out to do the opposite - stifles enterprise and forces businesses to leave the area. Just look at all the places they've brought in minimum wages - this is always the result - less jobs for the poorest in society.

I believe that a State has the right to look after its people. It has the right to say to to employers you cannot employ child labour, because we need these children to go to school, so that they can be literate and highly productive OVER the LONG TERM. It has a right to insist that adaquate safety standards are employed in business so that unscrupulous employers do not kill them,or leave them maimed so that the State had to kill them or hospitalise them. It has a right to extract money from these employers to pay for this education and training.
Minimum wages are part of this. A State has a right to say, do not treat our citizens as slaves , give them a living wage, or we the State have to give them handouts .
They encourage greater enterprise and productivity and stops a race to the bottom.
At some stage these state protections become counterproductive,and starts killing the golden goose, but prudent Government is knowing when to draw the line.
I am happy to see wealthy industries and industrialists, I am also happy to see safe work practices, non austerity, prosperous citizens.

 

[OxygenJames]

The two are not mutually exclusive, both those social factors and market forces apply. In all cases there's the fundamental market force of what a person is prepared to do in relation to what they expect in reward for doing it.

Here in the UK people can choose to do pretty much nothing and still get a wage (it's called benefits).

So everybody has their limit you're right - you can't just pay peanuts because they simply won't work - unless you beat them.

And nobody is proposing that.

So there is no actual need for a minimum wage. It just places a restriction on the system and slows everything down makes it less efficient - and favours one group over another for no good reason other than they can get away with it. Its rigging the market - it never works.

 

[OxygenJames]

Here in the UK people can choose to do pretty much nothing and still get a wage (it's called benefits).

So everybody has their limit you're right - you can't just pay peanuts because they simply won't work - unless you beat them.

And nobody is proposing that.

So there is no actual need for a minimum wage. It just places a restriction on the system and slows everything down makes it less efficient - and favours one group over another for no good reason other than they can get away with it. Its rigging the market - it never works.

There is already a minimum wage which is what you can get for doing sweet FA on benefits. There is no need for another layer - it just adds bureaucracy.

 

[50Hertz]

I don’t mind the idea of a minimum wage, but can see merit in some of the arguments against it. I think more control over the use of Zero Hours contacts would be a good idea. That would put some security and stability into people’s lives, which is probably as important as actual earnings.

I’ll sign out with Happy New Year.

 

[Zlatan]

I believe that a State has the right to look after its people. It has the right to say to to employers you cannot employ child labour, because we need these children to go to school, so that they can be literate and highly productive OVER the LONG TERM. It has a right to insist that adaquate safety standards are employed in business so that unscrupulous employers do not kill them,or leave them maimed so that the State had to kill them or hospitalise them. It has a right to extract money from these employers to pay for this education and training.
Minimum wages are part of this. A State has a right to say, do not treat our citizens as slaves , give them a living wage, or we the State have to give them handouts .
They encourage greater enterprise and productivity and stops a race to the bottom.
At some stage these state protections become counterproductive,and starts killing the golden goose, but prudent Government is knowing when to draw the line.
I am happy to see wealthy industries and industrialists, I am also happy to see safe work practices, non austerity, prosperous citizens.

Think we all are, its just how to get there.

 

[flecc]

There is already a minimum wage which is what you can get for doing sweet FA on benefits. There is no need for another layer - it just adds bureaucracy.

There already is another layer anyway, being on benefits while earning in the black economy. The scale of that is still very large, despite all the efforts to eliminate it.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Your use of words like 'everything' reveal your stupidity.

Nobody lies about everything. You're such a dork.

And you reveal yours by voting for such a creature.
You love to bandy round insults don't you?

 

[oldgroaner]

Here in the UK people can choose to do pretty much nothing and still get a wage (it's called benefits).

So everybody has their limit you're right - you can't just pay peanuts because they simply won't work - unless you beat them.

And nobody is proposing that.

So there is no actual need for a minimum wage. It just places a restriction on the system and slows everything down makes it less efficient - and favours one group over another for no good reason other than they can get away with it. Its rigging the market - it never works.

How odd that some people were stupid enough to vote in a man who just did something they disapprove of, by increasing the minimum wage.
Not a good start Boris according to one of your dupes is it?

 

[oldgroaner]

Because that is a better outcome than a Corbyn, Butler, Abbott, Wrong-Daily, etc, etc , etc government. How many more times?

You hope

 

[Zlatan]

How odd that some people were stupid enough to vote in a man who just did something they disapprove of, by increasing the minimum wage.
Not a good start Boris according to one of your dupes is it?

That has got to be your hardest to undertsand post yet. You seem to be changing your stance to argue against OJ but I, m not sure.Really.
Are you against Boris raising minimum wage or just against anything OJ says? Its difficult for you to be against both in this instance, I think trying to do so has confused you.
Secretly, you agreed with OJ but you cant admit it??? Perhaps? Who knows?

 

[Zlatan]

You hope

Just stop and think what we would now be facing with a Corbyn govt.
Another referendum to argue over and a weak government not getting anything through house with still no end in site for anything.

 

[flecc]

Just stop and think what we would now be facing with a Corbyn govt.
Another referendum to argue over and a weak government not getting anything through house with still no end in site for anything.

There certainly would have been an end in sight on EU membership, we'd be staying in the EU and everything would quickly settle down with no negotiations necessary.

As it is Brexit ramifications and arguments will go on for years of trade negotiations yet.
.

 

[Zlatan]

There certainly would have been an end in sight on EU membership, we'd be staying in the EU and everything would quickly settle down with no negotiations necessary.

As it is Brexit ramifications and arguments will go on for years of trade negotiations yet.
.

You dont know that at all Flecc. Corbyn was planning on negotiating another deal and then putiing that to a referendum.And that's assuming he would arrive at a deal and then get both the deal and referendum request through house. He, d have needed at least a good majority to do either. Suspect he, d have been in same position as May, at whim of aliances against him.
What he proposed doing and what he could have done are two different things.
At least this government can be decisive. A strong majority for either side has many benefits.
All rather academic now, we can start remembering Corbyn through rose coloured specs, if a mixed metaphor is ok.

 

[oldgroaner]

That has got to be your hardest to undertsand post yet. You seem to be changing your stance to argue against OJ but I, m not sure.Really.
Are you against Boris raising minimum wage or just against anything OJ says? Its difficult for you to be against both in this instance, I think trying to do so has confused you.
Secretly, you agreed with OJ but you cant admit it??? Perhaps? Who knows?

I'm against Boris making sweeping promises without the means to pay for them, was that too hard to understand?
He's no guarantee that outside the EU he won't be too cash strapped to carry out these schemes, had he any sense he would have deferred expensive projects till a trade deal was actually done.
And the cash started rolling in.
Surely you don't need to have these things explained to you?
This is why I worry that this Brexit farce is going to fail.
Too much posturing , promises and decisions made without a carefully planned approach with tangible assets to back them up.
And that is without taking into consideration how incompetent this set of politicians are.
And the Public have been told to expect a "Golden Age"

 

[Zlatan]

I'm against Boris making sweeping promises without the means to pay for them, was that too hard to understand?
He's no guarantee that outside the EU he won't be too cash strapped to carry out these schemes, had he any sense he would have deferred expensive projects till a trade deal was actually done.
And the cash started rolling in.
Surely you don't need to have these things explained to you?
This is why I worry that this Brexit farce is going to fail.
Too much posturing , promises and decisions made without a carefully planned approach with tangible assets to back them up.
And that is without taking into consideration how incompetent this set of politicians are.
And the Public have been told to expect a "Golden Age"

Yes, by a grown up.

But you voted for a man who was going to dwarf BJ's increased spending?
You cant argue a strategy from Boris is bad but vote for an extreme version of that same strategy. Well, I suppose you can.
But, you are agreeing with OJ. He was also against Boris's plans for miinimum wage, but you criticised him too.??? Barking mad.
Basically you are against anything Boris does or anything OJ says, which does lead to confusion on your part when OJ criticises Boris. It makes you look, well.... stupid.
You best bet would have been to agree with OJ's criticisms.,but you cant do that can you. Very odd.

 

[OxygenJames]

How odd that some people were stupid enough to vote in a man who just did something they disapprove of, by increasing the minimum wage.
Not a good start Boris according to one of your dupes is it?

No it's not. I don't agree on everything the man says or does. Just given the alternative it was a no brainer in the election. Boris has a chance to do some interesting things - for now he can't mess with the minimum wage or the NHS - give him time though maybe he'll get to them as well as a bunch of other stuff on his plate.

 

[OxygenJames]

You love to bandy round insults don't you?

Only to deserving people.

 

[OxygenJames]

I don’t mind the idea of a minimum wage, but can see merit in some of the arguments against it. I think more control over the use of Zero Hours contacts would be a good idea. That would put some security and stability into people’s lives, which is probably as important as actual earnings.

I’ll sign out with Happy New Year.

Again - for some companies their profit margins are so wafer thin they have to have workers on zero contracts. Otherwise there would not be ANY business there AT ALL. Which do you want - NOTHING - or zero contracts? That is the actual choice in many cases.