Brexit, for once some facts.

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
One of their demands is for minimum pensions of..... wait for it.......... 1200 Euros a month!!!!
I'd call that realistic rather than aspirational. The present UK pension is a shade over £712 per month for those with entitlement to a full pension. That doesn't go very far and of course, the vast, vast majority have contributed for most of their adult life, not with other people's money but with their own.

Tom
 
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Jennifer Jenkins

Pedelecer
Jun 6, 2018
68
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Weasel words, the correct saying is "Capitalism is great till you run out of other people's money, unless of course you succeed in ruining the planet first."
Capitalism is what's dragged China and now Africa and most of Asia out of extreme poverty in the last 40 years - and dragged us out of all that a century or so earlier.

Get with the plot and stop thinking your stupid socialism will produce anything other than various versions of Venezuela, Cuba and of course the diabolical Soviet Union that finally collapsed under it's own chronic hypocrisy and failure.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Which is how come even if it has to come from zillions of miles away it still works out cheaper than stuff from France.

Once out of the EU we'll be able to get WAY cheaper stuff from the US and Chile and NZ and all sorts of places. If we ever leave I should say. Which I now seriously doubt what with that idiot woman's 'deal'. Not that she is going to win the vote. We just don't know what's going to happen AFTER she loses that vote.
I don't think there is any great enthusiasm for any comestible items produced to American Food standards, and we cannot assume public tastes will switch to cheaper wines,nor that the supply can accommodate the increase in sales and consumption.
For after all, unless there is a marked cost increase, the buying pattern will simply revert.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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I'd call that realistic rather than aspirational. The present UK pension is a shade over £712 per month for those with entitlement to a full pension. That doesn't go very far and of course, the vast, vast majority have contributed for most of their adult life, not with other people's money but with their own.

Tom
Is it? according to you gov The full basic State Pension is £125.95 per week.
 
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Jennifer Jenkins

Pedelecer
Jun 6, 2018
68
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How blind can you be? They are only clamouring for trade links so they can sell to us at far lower prices than we can manage.

With our costs we can't possible sell to those countries, especially when they can buy from cheaper and much closer China. Not even services, India supplies us with far more of those already than we ever could to them.

Sometimes I wish, like OG, that we could crash out for you to have the shock of reality replacing fantasy.
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Great. So we buy from them and some UK industries go bust. Excellent. That's how the market works - FOR THE CONSUMER. And those people in the UK then go work for MORE EFFICIENT local businesses in the UK that produce things at better value than anybody else. This is basic capitalism and is what has reduced world poverty by about 85% since the early 1980s.

What a great time to be alive! Especially if you're from China or India or most parts of Asia - where the change has been AMAZING over that time period.
 
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Jennifer Jenkins

Pedelecer
Jun 6, 2018
68
36
I don't think there is any great enthusiasm for any comestible items produced to American Food standards, and we cannot assume public tastes will switch to cheaper wines,nor that the supply can accommodate the increase in sales and consumption.
For after all, unless there is a marked cost increase, the buying pattern will simply revert.
There's enthusiasm from poor people. Poor people don't give a flying **** about some trace amounts of chlorine in chicken - poor people are the ones who will benefit most from Brexit - cheaper clothes and shoes and loads of other BASIC stuff. But no - the rich don't like their cartels messed with. Open your eyes.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,161
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What a great time to be alive! Especially if you're from China or India or most parts of Asia - where the change has been AMAZING over that time period.
Yes it works for very low pay countries with huge peasant population reservoirs who have only recently got into large scale manufacturing.

That's not the UK is it?

You really need to think through your arguments more thoroughly.
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Jennifer Jenkins

Pedelecer
Jun 6, 2018
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a lot seem to be overfed, but undernourished. In many cases main diet seems to consist of takeaways, mcdonalds etc. Makes me smile a bit when people say they cannot afford to eat healthily. A pound of mince for £3 and a few other cheap ingredients will feed 6/8 people. Problem is people have lost the ability to cook
Lost the ability or can't be bothered.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Great. So we buy from them and some UK industries go bust. Excellent. That's how the market works - FOR THE CONSUMER. And those people in the UK then go work for MORE EFFICIENT local businesses in the UK that produce things at better value than anybody else. This is basic capitalism and is what has reduced world poverty by about 85% since the early 1980s.

What a great time to be alive! Especially if you're from China or India or most parts of Asia - where the change has been AMAZING over that time period.
So amazing in fact that the benefits of Capitalism are ruining the Climate in pursuit of profit, and the places you mention are the worst polluters outside the USA,
And one by the way is a Communist Run rogue regime that cannot be described as "basic Capitalism" The name for that sort of regime is Fascism ,which is after all the real name of Capitalism when applied unrestricted.
And you are happy that businesses go bust in this country and the employees and families suffer so long as your greed for cheap products is satisfied.
So in fact your "basic capitalism " has the effect of throwing our companies and workers on the scrap heap in this country to put the work and profits into a nation where labour is cheap and to hell with the environment?
 
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tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
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Do you really believe that?
What is going to make that happen when the Government has already stated that it will adjust the numbers to suit itself?
Remember it actually always could with non EU immigrants but never has.
Why should it now when the need is greater?
That’s a good point. The government make freedom to “control immigration” a central issue of the Brexit farce. We have always had the freedom to control non-EU immigration but have failed to do so, it’s actually increasing. So there is no sense banging on about taking back control of immigration, we can’t do it. The Border Agency has been starved of cash to the point that it is unfit for purpose. The only people we should be criticising for the state of imigration are the cretins In Westminster. It’s not the EU we should blame.
 

Jennifer Jenkins

Pedelecer
Jun 6, 2018
68
36
Yes it works for very low pay countries with huge peasant population reservoirs who have only recently got into large scale manufacturing.

That's not the UK is it?

You really need to think through your arguments more thoroughly.
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It works here too. We have to shape up and do what we do best - not try to compete with people who can do that stuff for way cheaper.

Do you really think China's recent economic expansion has hurt us? No. Of course not. We stopped trying to compete manufacuring wigets and the like - and got stuck into stuff we CAN compete at. Like stuff that requires using one's brain.
 

Jennifer Jenkins

Pedelecer
Jun 6, 2018
68
36
That’s a good point. The government make freedom to “control immigration” a central issue of the Brexit farce. We have always had the freedom to control non-EU immigration but have failed to do so, it’s actually increasing. So there is no sense banging on about taking back control of immigration, we can’t do it. The Border Agency has been starved of cash to the point that it is unfit for purpose. The only people we should be criticising for the state of imigration are the cretins In Westminster. It’s not the EU we should blame.
Doh. It's low skilled workers from within Europe we will be able to block once we're out.
 
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Jennifer Jenkins

Pedelecer
Jun 6, 2018
68
36
So amazing in fact that the benefits of Capitalism are ruining the Climate in pursuit of profit, and the places you mention are the worst polluters outside the USA,
And one by the way is a Communist Run rogue regime that cannot be described as "basic Capitalism" :try Fascism ,which is after all the real name of Capitalism when applied unrestricted.
Oh - so its now about who pollutes the most is it?

Whatever.
 

oyster

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 7, 2017
10,422
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That's weird and somewhat irrational. The only viable way to produce the hydrogen at present is using electricity, an inefficient energy conversion. Having hydrogen trains instead of electric would be very silly indeed. Hydrogen used in transport is mainly for fuel cells to produce electricity, making the argument a circular one. Might as well just use the electricity in the first place.
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However, despite the huge improvements achieved, batteries are still pretty darned heavy and take quite some time to recharge. It doesn't take much to imagine using hydrogen as a much lighter way of storing a given amount of energy and, potentially, much faster "charging" - whether that uses pre-filled hydrogen containers or pumps hydrogen into the vehicle's storage tank. Whether we can ever achieve that is questionable, of course.
 
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Jennifer Jenkins

Pedelecer
Jun 6, 2018
68
36
As do we all, the important thing is to remember to want to.
Is that within one's control though? How can you 'remember' something? If you do - it was pure luck - you can't 'force' yourself to remember something can you? Anymore than you can force yourself to forget something. Thoughts just appear in your head right? There's no way you can know what your next thought is going to be. Try it. Try to tell me what your next thought is going to be BEFORE you have it. Whatever thought it is - well it just arrived huh?

Maybe I took too much LSD at college. My husband says I didn't take enough - but what does he know?
 
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oyster

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 7, 2017
10,422
14,609
West West Wales
There's enthusiasm from poor people. Poor people don't give a flying **** about some trace amounts of chlorine in chicken - poor people are the ones who will benefit most from Brexit - cheaper clothes and shoes and loads of other BASIC stuff. But no - the rich don't like their cartels messed with. Open your eyes.
The issue about chlorinated chicken isn't, as you seem to think, the trace amount of chlorine present in the product.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,161
30,578
We stopped trying to compete manufacuring wigets and the like - and got stuck into stuff we CAN compete at. Like stuff that requires using one's brain.
We do that already, but it cannot earn on the scale we need for our economy. Germany is the smartest and best performing economy and society in the EU, but they can only make that work to earn enough by producing mass manufacture stuff as well as very high tech.

They can't compete with such as China on much of it, so sell on quality. Do you really think we could take their place, for if we can't that wouldn't work, any market is only so big.

Pencils for example, China has the mass cheap market, Staetdler in Germany has the quality one and their customers are not going to switch to an upstart.
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
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Capitalism is what's dragged China and now Africa and most of Asia out of extreme poverty in the last 40 years - and dragged us out of all that a century or so earlier.

Get with the plot and stop thinking your stupid socialism will produce anything other than various versions of Venezuela, Cuba and of course the diabolical Soviet Union that finally collapsed under it's own chronic hypocrisy and failure.
Usual BS, Socialism built this country from the smoking ruin it was at the end of the Second World war, you clearly haven't the remotest idea of what socialism is, have you , or you wouldn't keep coming out with the second hand propaganda you do.

Has someone been telling you the Soviet Union was Socialist any more than Nazi Germany was?
 

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