Brexit, for once some facts.

oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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Isn't there anyone out there that voted leave and actually justify that decision now?
Come on, all we seem to get is annoying pests who actually don't have enough knowledge to be able to argue their case.
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,197
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The Brexit prospects changed radically today.

Theresa May said for the first time that voting down her deal could mean No Brexit at all.

Labour now as well as Tory ministers have ruled out crashing out. It's no longer an option since a huge Commons majority is against it.

The possibility of a second referendum is now widely agreed to have moved a little bit closer and most accept that Remain now has a sizeable majority if that happens.
,
 
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Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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I didnt agree with JRM but I always found him a clear spoken person but I have to say the Dad's Army press conference he chaired with Davis and Co was laughable....the presentation was amateurish,the sound quality awful and the panel was ill informed,no women on the panel invited the Dad's Army comments,it presented an image of a bunch of sad old men who are stuck in the 1930's.
It did the Brexiteer cause no favours and must have killed off JRM and Co's leadership challenge,best go back to Somerset and hibernate in the country seat,dreaming of Singapore and CPF.
KudosDave
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
32,613
80
The Brexit prospects changed radically today.

Theresa May said for the first time that voting down her deal could mean No Brexit at all.

Labour now as well asTory ministers have ruled out crashing out. It's no longer an option since a huge Commons majority is against it.

The possibility of a second referendum is now widely agreed to have moved a little bit closer and most accept that Remain now has a sizeable majority if that happens.
,
Excellent news, for all voters on either side, but a bad day for some of the idiot fringe fanatics who still support Brexit
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
The Brexit prospects changed radically today.

Theresa May said for the first time that voting down her deal could mean No Brexit at all.

Labour now as well asTory ministers have ruled out crashing out. It's no longer an option since a huge Commons majority is against it.

The possibility of a second referendum is now widely agreed to have moved a little bit closer and most accept that Remain now has a sizeable majority if that happens.
,
The JRM press fiasco (Dad's Army) probably emboldened Theresa May to ignore the ERG ,after all there are 84 in the ERG but they couldnt get 48 letters into Brady.
I think she may tinker with her deal,throw in a few human rights and employment rights enhancements to get Corbyn on her side...it would be difficult for him then to vote it down. If he does vote it down she can say that Labour spoilt Brexit and she has no alternative to go back to the people.
JRM wrecked any possibilty of NO DEAL,so we are MAY'S DEAL or SECOND VOTE,in any event we are staying in the Customs Union and Single Market.
KudosDave
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
23,461
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80
I didnt agree with JRM but I always found him a clear spoken person but I have to say the Dad's Army press conference he chaired with Davis and Co was laughable....the presentation was amateurish,the sound quality awful and the panel was ill informed,no women on the panel invited the Dad's Army comments,it presented an image of a bunch of sad old men who are stuck in the 1930's.
It did the Brexiteer cause no favours and must have killed off JRM and Co's leadership challenge,best go back to Somerset and hibernate in the country seat,dreaming of Singapore and CPF.
KudosDave
Perhaps Fingers could be invited to go down to one of their meetings, join them and give speech on their behalf.

That should not only put the final nail in the coffin of Brexit, but screw the lid down as well., and light the gas jets underneath too.:cool:

I have some excellent advice for Jeremy Corbyn too: The weather may not be wonderful in Afghanistan at the moment, but it would be safer taking a holiday there for a month starting right now than facing the coming squalls hereabouts!
 

anotherkiwi

Esteemed Pedelecer
Jan 26, 2015
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The JRM press fiasco (Dad's Army) probably emboldened Theresa May to ignore the ERG ,after all there are 84 in the ERG but they couldnt get 48 letters into Brady.
I think she may tinker with her deal,throw in a few human rights and employment rights enhancements to get Corbyn on her side...it would be difficult for him then to vote it down. If he does vote it down she can say that Labour spoilt Brexit and she has no alternative to go back to the people.
JRM wrecked any possibilty of NO DEAL,so we are MAY'S DEAL or SECOND VOTE,in any event we are staying in the Customs Union and Single Market.
KudosDave
She doesn't come over as clever enough to have planned this outcome all along - just a happy coincidence?
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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She doesn't come over as clever enough to have planned this outcome all along - just a happy coincidence?
It's known as

The Flying fickle finger of Fate
Along the lines of Lincoln's last minute decision to go to the Opera

I really don't see this working out well for all except as Churchill put it
"those in the abodes of the Guilty"
 
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Nev

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May 1, 2018
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I voted remain and would like to see another referendum, but I also like to look at things from other peoples point of view. What would be the choices on the question paper?

I have a couple of close friends who are hard brexiters (we have good natured arguments with each other), they are intelligent people who voted leave on principle not for the stupid promises that the leave campaign gave.

If the choice on the ballet paper was remain in the EU or leave on Mays deal then my two friends would chose remain because they think what May is offering is not what they thought leave meant.

If there was three choices ie. Remain, Mays deal, or WTO then they would chose WTO, but having three choices is not really fair to the leave voters as it splits the leave vote.

So to be fair to both sides, how many questions would be on the ballet paper and what would the questions be?
 
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Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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So to be fair to both sides, how many questions would be on the ballet paper and what would the questions be?
there should be 3 questions with a second preference: Remain, WTO, TM's deal.
If none wins outright (50%+) then the second preference is added to the first. The option with most votes (first + second preference) wins.
On this basis, I reckon TM's deal would win at the second round.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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I voted remain and would like to see another referendum, but I also like to look at things from other peoples point of view. What would be the choices on the question paper?

I have a couple of close friends who are hard brexiters (we have good natured arguments with each other), they are intelligent people who voted leave on principle not for the stupid promises that the leave campaign gave.

If the choice on the ballet paper was remain in the EU or leave on Mays deal then my two friends would chose remain because they think what May is offering is not what they thought leave meant.

If there was three choices ie. Remain, Mays deal, or WTO then they would chose WTO, but having three choices is not really fair to the leave voters as it splits the leave vote.

So to be fair to both sides, how many questions would be on the ballet paper and what would the questions be?
You are a most fortunate person, can't you induce these intelligent leave voters to come on here to debate?

It would really help the debate, as I said before, this thread hasn't enough victims to stop the lions going hungry style of thing.
 
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Wicky

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Feb 12, 2014
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I have news for you there were men standing outside the dock gates and our factory looking for work in the late 1950's
And in the 1970's my job description read
You are not employed on a fixed hours basis, you are required to be available whenever and wherever required.
What did this actually mean? I had as my patch the entire British Isles.
Interestingly my reading of that at the time was that I was actually employed 24/7! on the credit side I was on a fixed Salary
Of course at that time I had never heard of a "Zero hours contract"
And the workforce were to a man and woman described on their contracts as casual labourers, even the skilled men
Casual labour definition:
people who are employed on a temporary , rather than a permanent or regular basis
I discovered that form of employment/labour queue system when I was a sixth-form student in the very early 80s. Used to working as Sainsbury for about £1.50 an hour on tills / stacking shelves. Then I went backpacking to Crete for a month and thought I'd try and top up the budget grape picking/ agricultural work so joined a crowd waiting on a street corner in Iraklion, composed of vagrants and Eastern Europeans from commie countries (who'd snuck out pre the wall coming down), From chatting with them found out the wage was 50p an hour - Sod that! I thought and went back to the beach to top up the tan!
 

Nev

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May 1, 2018
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there should be 3 questions with a second preference: Remain, WTO, TM's deal.
If none wins outright (50%+) then the second preference is added to the first. The option with most votes (first + second preference) wins.
On this basis, I reckon TM's deal would win at the second round.
Excellent suggestion, this would appear to be fair to both leavers and remainers, can anyone see a problem with it?
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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So to be fair to both sides, how many questions would be on the ballet paper and what would the questions be?
It must only be two, May's Deal or Remain.

Three options would split both remain and leave votes and could end up a three way balance, and the EU will not have their patience stretched to a second voting round if there were two higher preferences.

However, there are signs in Westminster that May's deal failing and crashing out now being ruled out could result in steamrollering into a Norway deal as the best escape route.

That's fine by me, it's virtually full EU membership and very similar to what we have now, but without a full place at the decisions table.
.
 

Fingers

Esteemed Pedelecer
Feb 9, 2016
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I voted remain and would like to see another referendum, but I also like to look at things from other peoples point of view. What would be the choices on the question paper?

I have a couple of close friends who are hard brexiters (we have good natured arguments with each other), they are intelligent people who voted leave on principle not for the stupid promises that the leave campaign gave.

If the choice on the ballet paper was remain in the EU or leave on Mays deal then my two friends would chose remain because they think what May is offering is not what they thought leave meant.

If there was three choices ie. Remain, Mays deal, or WTO then they would chose WTO, but having three choices is not really fair to the leave voters as it splits the leave vote.

So to be fair to both sides, how many questions would be on the ballet paper and what would the questions be?

Thats the problem. No sane person can possibly back Mays Brexit. Its literally the worst of both sides.

Given the choice of her vison or remain you have to vote remain. Mays Brexit isn't really Brexit anyway so the argument doesn't even go away.

The other problem with another referendum is the never ending saga if its close ish again.

The only way it would work for you guys is if its 70/30 and that never going to happen. I would even suggest that the way the EU has become so intransigent some remainers may have even shifted their vote.
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
You would have laws to stop people voting?

Very undemocratic Tom the Liar.

Is that why you love the EU so much? I thought it was because of convenience to your bolt hole in Spain. Now it seems you have a more sinister reason to control the will of the people in a country you don't even live in.

Very interesting
Let's examine what you just posted.

First, you asked a question to which my answer is no. I live with the system, imperfect as it is. There may well be reason, however, to question why there exists universal suffrage in the UK so long as one is 18 years of age (since 1970) yet in Scotland, a special case was made for the Independence referendum for those aged 16/17.

Up until 1970, one had to be 21 to vote so clearly parliament may adjust the terms appertaining to the right to vote as it suits them.

Where it becomes difficult, as an example, is with serving prisoners in the UK. Over a decade ago, the ECHR found for a UK prisoner when he challenged the government's right to deny him the vote. The British government has consistently failed to change the legislation and remains in contempt, as it were, of the European Court's judgement.

The reason I mention that aspect is obviously because our prisons hold a cross-section of society so there are many highly qualified and/or well educated individuals among them, all denied the right to vote whereas outside of prison, we allow everyone to vote so long as they are of sufficient age - lack of operational mental faculty does not seem to be a pre-requisite and as a consequence you are permitted to vote, which drew my comment.

The rest of your post is offtopic.gif and pure nonsense.

Tom
 

Nev

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May 1, 2018
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It must only be two, May's Deal or Remain.
.
Even thought I don't agree with my two friends, I think this choice is not fair to them. They don't want to remain and they don't want Mays deal, they want a hard Brexit, or what they would call a real Brexit. If this choice is not available to them on the ballot paper then that doesn't seem right does it?
 
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Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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Thats the problem. No sane person can possibly back Mays Brexit. Its literally the worst of both sides.

Given the choice of her vison or remain you have to vote remain. Mays Brexit isn't really Brexit anyway so the argument doesn't even go away.

The other problem with another referendum is the never ending saga if its close ish again.

The only way it would work for you guys is if its 70/30 and that never going to happen. I would even suggest that the way the EU has become so intransigent some remainers may have even shifted their vote.
Whats wrong with May's deal?
It seems to be a good compromise between Leaving and Remaining.
Its not as good as the wonderful deal we currently have with the EU,thanks in part to Maggie Thatcher but it does seem to offer Brexiteers most of what they want and leaves the door open to a frre trade deal in the future.
What is not Brexit about May's deal?
KudosDave
 
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Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
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Even thought I don't agree with my two friends, I think this choice is not fair to them. They don't want to remain and they don't want Mays deal, they want a hard Brexit, or what they would call a real Brexit. If this choice is not available to them on the ballot paper then that doesn't seem right does it?
Why do they want a hard Brexit?
What are the advantages of a hard Brexit?
KudosDave
 
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