Brakes.

[lightning]

Modern brakes on bikes are generally very good, whatever type is fitted.

The brakes continue to work even with minimal or no maintenance.

Remember the days when you had to regularly adjust your rim brakes so the pads aligned with the rim? And if you got it wrong, or didn't carry out the adjustment as the pads wore down, the brake pads could actually come off the inside of the rim under heavy braking!
And when it rained they just didn't work.

Now, brakes work for years with occasional pad replacement (often left until they get noisy because the pads are completely shot) and a fluid change if they are lucky.

 

[StuartsProjects]

I know you didn't. I was replying to Lightnings post. Hence me quoting it specifically lol

Nope, dont think anyones claimed that any were unsafe. They had their flaws.
I initially used cantis - XT, but offroad they werent that good, in the dry yes they stopped you, but in the wet they didnt. I went from there to XTR V brakes, on ceramic rims, which gave better performance in the wet, if you didnt mind the shushshshsh sound.

But in offroad settings bitd we weren't moving at 25+mph

But brakes for downhill, off road and the like are reall different requirement than for road use;

"The problems with most mechanical systems is theyre maintenance hungry, prone to power drop off, and really really unsuitable for anything other than a gentle bimble along the roads at 10mph."

I always found side pull brakes on alloy rims completly adequate for fast road use. Although to be fair at 50mph+ a fair bit of care was needed with side pulls and not so much care needed with hydraulics.

"But i'm changing those to Hopes new Tech 4 V4's on the thicker Ebike orientated rotors, and for the simple reason is that its a better development reflecting the ridding were doing, the increased weight of the bikes, the higher speeds people are reaching"

Just been re-alligning my set of original Hope M4s for a new rear motor wheel. Jolly good brakes they are too.

 

[AndyBike]

Just been re-alligning my set of original Hope M4s for a new rear motor wheel. Jolly good brakes they are too.

Im a complete Hope tech nutter myself. They certainly make some of the nicest brakes about and all are serviceable. Unlike the likes of Shimano which are effectively a disposable system. It starts to leak, you only have the option of binning them.

 

[lightning]

Fabulous!!

 

[georgehenry]

My two 2011 Oxygen Emate City rear hub bikes have mechanical disc brakes with electric cut outs. The one I bought for a £100 from the classified section of this site had only been ridden 500 miles when I bought it in the Autumn of 2018.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/the-tale-of-a-£100-second-hand-electric-bike.33079/#post-467114

The brakes had been well set up, and I used it to commute to work, 10 miles each way on the road. Used in this way on this journey the brakes worked very well and needed little adjustment.

This was because they did not get used that much as the bulk of the journey was cruising along between two towns on a b road with very little braking required.

Of course hydraulic brakes are better but the mechanical disc brakes with electric cut outs worked too well for a lazy me to be bothered to change them.

My other Oxygen Emate rear hub bike was bought by me brand new in 2011. It also has mechanical disc brakes with electric cut outs. I also bought this initially to ride to work and back on that same b road and again the brakes were fine.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/old-nag.41394/#post-619513

However, I started experimenting with a mix of road and off road. Off road my mechanical disc brakes were much less effective, and borderline inadequate when it was wet. I could adjust the front to be just ready to bite, and by the end of one wet ride the lever had come right in to the handlebar!

Now both these Oxygen Rear hub bikes still get regularly used for shopping trips and general errands. My son now uses the original one I bought to commute to his job in the centre of town. I live at the top of the hill with the town in the valley. I still do not have an issue about their stopping ability, but you do need to regularly adjust them.

However, adjusting them is so easy that it is hardly a chore, as is changing the pads which are cheap. I keep the correct size allen key on a shelf by the garage door, and a bag of replacement pads on the same shelf. A quick turn of the adjuster and your done.

Both these rear hub bikes are incredibly low maintenance as chains, cassettes and chain rings last years, and the brakes can be adjusted in under a minute by yourself. Then once in a while you change the pads, probably in less than 5 minutes. So no bike shop involved and my original Emate will be 11 years old in June. Now that is cheap transport.

There was a period when after changing the pads on my original Oxygen, and despite adjusting them, the performance had fallen away and they needed constant adjustment. I quickly realised that I had worn out the original discs and after buying a new set of amazon for about £11 and fitting them all was fine again.

However, I so enjoyed my experiment in riding to work off road that I bought entry level Yamaha Haibike in 2015, and that had hydraulic disc brakes, and there was no denying that they were far superior to the mechanical disc brakes and properly fit for purpose for off road riding in all conditions.

https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/haibike-sduro-hardseven-sl-2015-yamaha-7-month-1600-miles.22644/

As you can see, I am not someone who keeps changing their bike! I carefully research generally the cheapest bikes that can do the job I want them to do, test ride them, buy the one I like best, and then maintain it and use it and use it and use it. Works for me.

 

[Andy-Mat]

Absolutely agree - I find it quite amazing how little some people know about basic machinery and how to operate / fix it. What tends to get on my nerves a bit is the lack of effort (by some people) to try and understand & resolve a problem. I like the phrase: 'I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you'

Yours grumpily ......

YO!

 

[matthewslack]

I saw the other side of that explain / understand mismatch years ago, working at a sciency visitor attraction. The language used on the displays, I was told, needed to be at the level of 'an intelligent 9 year old'.

I was surprised, but that was the communication experts speaking, and from then on I've consciously dialed things down when necessary. Often it is just one key realisation, and the audience is away, a bit like...riding a bike.

 

[Andy-Mat]

I saw the other side of that explain / understand mismatch years ago, working at a sciency visitor attraction. The language used on the displays, I was told, needed to be at the level of 'an intelligent 9 year old'.

I was surprised, but that was the communication experts speaking, and from then on I've consciously dialed things down when necessary. Often it is just one key realisation, and the audience is away, a bit like...riding a bike.

I can well believe it!
Thanks
Andy

 

[Pokitren]

I know you didn't. I was replying to Lightnings post. Hence me quoting it specifically lol



Nope, dont think anyones claimed that any were unsafe. They had their flaws.
I initially used cantis - XT, but offroad they werent that good, in the dry yes they stopped you, but in the wet they didnt. I went from there to XTR V brakes, on ceramic rims, which gave better performance in the wet, if you didnt mind the shushshshsh sound.
But in offroad settings bitd we weren't moving at 25+mph

I've followed the developments of the canti. The different types, the small changes - for example the cable which first was seriously thickened, pre stretched, spring assists all developments designed to try to improve the power that was ok for general riding, but as the sport was developing, as peoples skills and confidence increased, we needed more reliable power in all weather conditions.
Cable stretch and give has always been a problem. Hydraulic has no effect like that, which is one of the main reasons hydraulics are used for braking systems, and not just on bicycles, but on cars, motorbike and other vehicles.

If you want a good example of how bad cable brakes were back in the day, go to you tube and watch the early XC racing. Most riders miss the turn and end up in the bushes or off the course because their brakes just didnt have the power to stop them effectively. Its actually quite funny to watch. And I've been there and done that, got the tshirt, and the bruises And all of those brakes were 'properly set up'.
Where did it go from there ?, what did the pros do, what systems did they use to combat the problem. Literally to a team they went onto magura hydraulic rim crushers. And from there to hydraulic disc brakes.

.But the problem here i feel is people like to hate. Its a holier than thou attitude. We don't use those they say in a dismissive sort of way. And to me who has ridden all the systems in a variety of situations, i find such attitude quite frankly ridiculous.


I pick and ride the safest option. Speed is nothing without control.
Current brakes are shimano 4 pots, which for pottering are pretty much ok.I like the way the price has come down and the power has gone up. But i'm changing those to Hopes new Tech 4 V4's on the thicker Ebike orientated rotors, and for the simple reason is that its a better development reflecting the ridding were doing, the increased weight of the bikes, the higher speeds people are reaching.

You are unequivocally right that people often like to hate - as much as it may sound. And many innovations are received with skepticism. However, I've seen for myself on my own bruises that good brakes are a necessity of life. And shimano is a good choice, the best choice at the moment.

 

[Andy-Mat]

You are unequivocally right that people often like to hate - as much as it may sound. And many innovations are received with skepticism. However, I've seen for myself on my own bruises that good brakes are a necessity of life. And shimano is a good choice, the best choice at the moment.

Some people, some of them here, often make sweeping assumptions, apparently only supporting what they themselves OWN, against all other products that they do NOT OWN.
Comments, that unless they are someone, working full time in a bike shop, and being the same person doing ALL the testing of ALL repairs and adjustments, in all types of weather, all the year round, they simply could not know for certain.....but they WISH that what they say is true!
You only need to read their comments very carefully, to see through such hate opinions.
As you say, some people love to hate everything and all that they themselves DID NOT purchase, or have extensive knowledge of!
They also try to somehow "protect" their purchases, however bad, from any critique from others....usually in a manner that makes it most obvious to anyone with even just a basic knowledge of the English language, to see through, and/or they are simply overly rude and very aggressive....Tactics thought to scare others off it would appear!!
Many, many thanks for your intelligent comments, which have also improved/changed the way I now read their bluster!
Best wishes for a great weekend from
Andy

 

[lightning]

Cable discs, at least the single piston ones, need regular adjustments to keep them
working well.
l adjusted mine less than 200 miles ago, and already they need the calipers re aligned because the pads have worn.

My hydraulic disc brakes have done over 3,000 miles and l've never touched them, apart from to adjust the bite point with the little knobs on the levers.

 

[AndyBike]

I think many comments on disc brakes are from people who's experience of them is with brakes costing £50 for an entire bikes worth. likes of very bottom end tektro or clarks
Theres a massive difference between brakes costing £30 with brakes costing £140-200 each end

 

[lightning]

Can you pay £140-200 for a cable disc brake? l
would imagine most choose cable disc brakes for the lower cost and at that price you could get something like a Shimano XT hydraulic disc setup.

 

[AndyBike]

Can you pay £140-200 for a cable disc brake? l
would imagine most choose cable disc brakes for the lower cost and at that price you could get something like a Shimano XT hydraulic disc setup.

TRP Spyre cost about £50 each, but these type are really designed around drop bars and that type of lever. To my mind I cannot fathom why anyone would stoically stick to a cable brake and spend TRP money unless they have some sort of weird sexual fixation on their brake levers.

XT brakes are pretty damn good. Plenty of serious offroad riders have them fitted, and as a 4 pot brake they have all the power you could need there on tap.
The servo wave lever provides the modulation a rider needs in the given situation.
Cable had no modulation, so its pretty much a death grip and hope that you're slowing down enough for any given situation.
Now that is fine if you are bimbling along, birds whistling in the sky and not a care in the world, but that car pops out suddenly in front of you cables just do not have the power to stop you before you go arse over tit across the bonnet.

Im not saying hydraulics are the be all end all and will prevent that accident. But the situations they're now designed for is a situation that you either stop or could end up seriously injured. This is pretty much now why 4 pots are the norm on mtb's.
So if you couple the power on tap, the odd need for serious stopping power, the fit and forget then people who slag off discs are either inexperienced, just plain dumb.
I mean, why wouldnt you want a capable brake on your bike ?, given its probably the most important part that plays towards keeping you our a hospital bed, wheelchair or coffin.

 

[Andy-Mat]

Cable discs, at least the single piston ones, need regular adjustments to keep them
working well.
l adjusted mine less than 200 miles ago, and already they need the calipers re aligned because the pads have worn.

My hydraulic disc brakes have done over 3,000 miles and l've never touched them, apart from to adjust the bite point with the little knobs on the levers.

I completely agree that they need regular adjustments, but not that often! I get through 4 sets of pads a year aproximately, (2 front, 1-2 back, as the back ones wear slower than the front!) and I adjust them when replacing them, and probably twice more for the front and once for the rear, as I carefully, with each replacement, also, set the adjuster on the lever back, so I can take up some slack while riding, if needed.
And I don't think of this as adjustment anymore (it really is I suppose!), as I need no tools, nor do I need to adjust/move the caliper every time! Once in the life of the pad suffices....
What helped was that when my bike was new, that I found that I needed to replace the LH pad of the front brake more often than the RH pad, but it was still not worn out! (That annoys people with Scottish blood!).
I then shimmed the caliper carefully, to place the disk exactly in the middle of the adjustment area. This solved the only problems that I had on the front brakes. Now tboth front pads wear as good as equally since then.
The rear pads were never a problem.
I believe now that the front mounting was welded about a millimeter out of place, to the left. (My thoughts only, not fact!)
What I myself really don't (didn't) like with hydraulic (maybe they are better made nowadays!) is that very occasionally, I need to work on the "bottom" of my bike, but due to back problems, working low simply hurts! So I turn the bike upside down!
This (I am told), by owners of hydraulic brakes, can cause bubbles and leakage with some of them....... Is that still true even today, or is that a thing of the past?
Not that even if it is fixed will I even try them, as mine are far more powerful that I ever need, and the running costs are simply tiny. Plus I have a spare caliper, already tested, in the cupboard!!
regards to all here!
Andy

 

[lightning]

Never had any issues with my hydraulic brakes when turning the bike upside down, although it's best not to touch the brake levers while the wheels are off.

 

[AndyBike]

Never had any issues with my hydraulic brakes when turning the bike upside down, although it's best not to touch the brake levers while the wheels are off.

Best not to yank on the levers, but you can pull them very slightly to get the pistons out a bit to give them a clean with a cotton bud and some cleaning stuff, or give them a lube with hunters.

As to the urban myth about turning the bike upside down. How do they send them new through the post in their boxes ? lol

@Andy-Mat
If you are interested. Im doing a bike strip down and selling off the bits(normal bike dont need now ive the ebike)
Amongst the bit are a pair(F&R) of Hope mono mini- the black ones with the gold bore caps. Mine are unusual as the master cylinder lever covers instead of saying HOPE, Say ANDY.
A bit flash to have personalized brakes, but im a bit of a tart when it comes to that sort of thing
They are in very good condition, work perfectly, and i can even throw in 2 new pairs of sintered pads
To you and only to you 70 quid inc RM 1st class signed for. I'd like them to go to a good home, that being another Andy.
Post mount front, No5 IS rear(No5 is 160mm) Most bikes are IS on the frame, and forks are mostly post mount.

 

[Andy-Mat]

Best not to yank on the levers, but you can pull them very slightly to get the pistons out a bit to give them a clean with a cotton bud and some cleaning stuff, or give them a lube with hunters.

As to the urban myth about turning the bike upside down. How do they send them new through the post in their boxes ? lol

@Andy-Mat
If you are interested. Im doing a bike strip down and selling off the bits(normal bike dont need now ive the ebike)
Amongst the bit are a pair(F&R) of Hope mono mini- the black ones with the gold bore caps. Mine are unusual as the master cylinder lever covers instead of saying HOPE, Say ANDY.
A bit flash to have personalized brakes, but im a bit of a tart when it comes to that sort of thing
They are in very good condition, work perfectly, and i can even throw in 2 new pairs of sintered pads
To you and only to you 70 quid inc RM 1st class signed for. I'd like them to go to a good home, that being another Andy.
Post mount front, No5 IS rear(No5 is 160mm) Most bikes are IS on the frame, and forks are mostly post mount.

Thanks for the offer, but my mechanical disk brakes exceed all my wishes in terms of easy to adjust, easy pad replacement, easy to dose and how they stop the bike REALLY quickly!
As one coming from an old Scottish family, we tend not to replacing something working well for little or no reason.....
There are several Andys here, maybe another one will take you up on your kind offer.
regards
Andy